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At a time when we're discussing how companies are cutting back on healthcare becasue of the costs per employee and benefits are being cut you're suggesting that companies that people work for subsidize or offer as a benefit to subsidize their employees education?
Actually - in our area, there are MANY companies (not all obviously), large and small that DO offer tuition re-reimbursement to their employees. It is one of the many benefits that are offered.
On another note, one great way for someone to pay for their education is through the GI Bill - members of the military can opt for educational benefits - both in and out of the service. Service members can actually attend classes while in the service and the military will re-reimburse the cost of those classes once the service member completes them. Then of course, after they get out of the service, there are any number of great educational benefits available.
At a time when we're discussing how companies are cutting back on healthcare becasue of the costs per employee and benefits are being cut you're suggesting that companies that people work for subsidize or offer as a benefit to subsidize their employees education? This is an ongoing practice in many companies, some for a 2-4 year degree or ongoing training and some even for Masters programs. This isn't a new idea, it's something companies are already doing!
As for school by "charity"... America's largest charity managed to raise 5 million in one year (the American Red Cross). 5 milllion is not enough to help educate or subsidize private education for over 50 million plus kids. Who said the Red Cross would pay for education, why do you focus on one group when as a whole Americans donated $295B in 2006. Have you forgotten (again) that many parents can afford to pay for their own child's education and that charitable contributions, grants, scholarships would only have to fill the gap?
What happens in years of economic struggle when charities do not bring in enough due to the belt tightening (which is happening this year!). Do we then say "sorry kids, no school this year. We didn't recieve enough charity to help pay for your tuition". I would suggest that in tough economic times these programs would do what we all have to do, prioritize, look for places to cut spending and make the most of what we have. Perhaps delay purchasing new text books and equipment without compromising education in the classroom, find ways to keep overhead low by using school facilities for multiple purposes, etc.
THis argument was brought up and argued many pages back.
The argument may have been brought up before but you have yet to successfully argue your point, which is why it keeps coming up again. You also haven't addressed the counter points to your previous 'college education is prohibitively expensive and nearly impossible to achieve without loads of debt' argument, although several posters have demonstrated that you are wrong.
Actually - in our area, there are MANY companies (not all obviously), large and small that DO offer tuition re-reimbursement to their employees. It is one of the many benefits that are offered.
On another note, one great way for someone to pay for their education is through the GI Bill - members of the military can opt for educational benefits - both in and out of the service. Service members can actually attend classes while in the service and the military will re-reimburse the cost of those classes once the service member completes them. Then of course, after they get out of the service, there are any number of great educational benefits available.
I should clarify.. I wasn't speaking to his proposal of secondary education subsidizing.. I was referring to his notion that companies would offer subsidizing employees children's elementary and secondary education.
I should clarify.. I wasn't speaking to his proposal of secondary education subsidizing.. I was referring to his notion that companies would offer subsidizing employees children's elementary and secondary education.
Well - than you need to make sure your posts are clear enough -
The argument may have been brought up before but you have yet to successfully argue your point, which is why it keeps coming up again. You also haven't addressed the counter points to your previous 'college education is prohibitively expensive and nearly impossible to achieve without loads of debt' argument, although several posters have demonstrated that you are wrong.
the argument was brought up and I proved my point. The point is that 5 million will not be enough to subsidize students education for those that can not afford it.
You all still have YET TO ANSWER with 100% certainty that NO CHILD will be without an education becasue of affordability issues in a privatized scheme.. because you can't guarantee that! I wouldn't care private or public if EVERY CHILD was guaranteed an education!
No one addressed the fact that private schools do NOT have to accomodate all students..
In other words.. what if there are too many students but not enough roomin the classrooms for all the children in the community. It's not like schools can complet across state lines.. it's regional. So we'll have a supply and demand issue that will raise the price of education tuition and price many out!!
THAT is my problem with a privitization scheme! PERIOD.
AS for secondary education you can say all you want. There are many costs involved with school beyond hte numbers you quoated. I also noted it takes a lot longer than 4 years to get a degree these days and a lot of fields now require you have a Masters.. and some a doctorate. I've already shared my personal experience where 2 siblings went to a Suny school here in NY and still have student loans to pay off from their education even with my parents contribution.... and they lived at home and worked!!!
But back to secondary and elementary education. Unless and until a privitization scheme can guarantee with 100% certainty that EVERY child will get an education, privitization of the entire school system will never happen!
I've already shared my personal experience where 2 siblings went to a Suny school here in NY and still have student loans to pay off from their education even with my parents contribution.... and they lived at home and worked!!!
And, I have shared several ideas on how they can have those laws forgiven -
the argument was brought up and I proved my point. The point is that 5 million will not be enough to subsidize students education for those that can not afford it.
You all still have YET TO ANSWER with 100% certainty that NO CHILD will be without an education becasue of affordability issues in a privatized scheme.. because you can't guarantee that! I wouldn't care private or public if EVERY CHILD was guaranteed an education!
No one addressed the fact that private schools do NOT have to accomodate all students..
In other words.. what if there are too many students but not enough roomin the classrooms for all the children in the community. It's not like schools can complet across state lines.. it's regional. So we'll have a supply and demand issue that will raise the price of education tuition and price many out!!
THAT is my problem with a privitization scheme! PERIOD.
AS for secondary education you can say all you want. There are many costs involved with school beyond hte numbers you quoated. I also noted it takes a lot longer than 4 years to get a degree these days and a lot of fields now require you have a Masters.. and some a doctorate. I've already shared my personal experience where 2 siblings went to a Suny school here in NY and still have student loans to pay off from their education even with my parents contribution.... and they lived at home and worked!!!
But back to secondary and elementary education. Unless and until a privitization scheme can guarantee with 100% certainty that EVERY child will get an education, privitization of the entire school system will never happen!
5 Million from the Red Cross? Just so I understand, you are proposing (posted twice) that private schools would be funded from the $5 million The Red Cross raises each year? I agree with you...I don't think that is a good plan. Go have a cup of coffee before you start posting in the morning.
Uh, we have enough seats for all the kids now. Why would that change? If there is a demand, it will be met....that is how industry works. I don't care if the demand is for Krispy Kreme donuts, office chairs or Algebra classes....there will not be a problem meeting the need. I also expect any change in how the system works will be a transition, not an overnight change. This will allow time for schools to change hands, facilities to be built etc.
Why can't schools compete across state lines with a private or even voucher system? I live 10 minutes from the state line...my kids could go there as well.
OK, this will sound harsh. Some kids don't deserve to go to school with others. By the time some kids get to high school they have felony convictions!! The kids that no decent school wants should get to go to some sort of military style boot camp education so they can learn to be productive members of their community instead of gangster thugs. Yes, private schools should get to decide (without discrimination based on race, gender, etc.) who attends their school.....no hugs for thugs!!
OK, is this good enough for you....like any other program, the government would have to provide a safety net for any families unable to secure funding (either paid for on their own or funding via scholarships, grants, etc.) but I don't think the need will be as great as you suggest. However, the problem is that when the government gets to handing out freebies more people will line up who really don't 'need' the help, they may have other options. In the end, you will have to decide to what extent to punish parents who act irresponsibly and do not provide funds for thier childs education when such funds are available (ie, they buy a new car but then don't have enough to pay tuition, or take a Disney Vacation but then ask for government help to fund education). It will be like our current 'healthcare crisis' where some people have not made having health insurance a priority, then get sick with no insurance and claim it is a 'healthcare crisis'. The number of folks who can not afford healthcare and are not eligible for some sort of government assistance is very few. Most of the people who make up the 'crisis' are just making bad choices. I expect that same group would have an 'education crisis' as well.
You haven't sufficiently addressed your claims that secondary education is unaffordable for most. I don't know why your siblings couldn't manage it, but your general analysis based on their experience alone isn't accurate. A 4 year degree takes 4 years (can be done in less), unless you aren't carrying a full work load. Your parents shouldn't be paying anything beyond that (if even paying for that).
And, I have shared several ideas on how they can have those laws forgiven -
Yes.. I understand that.. for them, howver, it is over and done with. One brother is working as an engineer in the private sector and the other went through to his doctorate in genetics and is currently working on government grants trying to find cures or help with treatments of diseases like Cancer and Parkinsons.
It's been awhile since they have been out of school..
5 Million from the Red Cross? Just so I understand, you are proposing (posted twice) that private schools would be funded from the $5 million The Red Cross raises each year? I agree with you...I don't think that is a good plan. Go have a cup of coffee before you start posting in the morning.
NO.. you did not read my post. If you go back to the earlier argument on charitable education I posted numbers. In 2006 Americans donated 295 Billion dollars in charity, which was divided among many charities. The BIGGEST charity, meaning the one that takes in the most annually is the American REd Cross which recieved 5 billion (this is correction from my previous post.. I had said 5 million and I was wrong.. it's 5 billion) of that 295Billion pie. 5 Billion will not be enough to sustain an education program for the many middle American and lower income families taht will need to have education subsidized so that their child can have an education guaranteed. I'm not suggesting taking money from the Red Cross I'm merely pointing out that the top fund raiser managed to raise 5 billion, which is not sufficient.
Uh, we have enough seats for all the kids now. Why would that change? If there is a demand, it will be met....that is how industry works. I don't care if the demand is for Krispy Kreme donuts, office chairs or Algebra classes....there will not be a problem meeting the need. I also expect any change in how the system works will be a transition, not an overnight change. This will allow time for schools to change hands, facilities to be built etc.
Yeah.. if there is a demand it will be met? Really... LOL. Here's a news flash. When something is in demand and there is not enough supply, the price of the item in demand goes up , hence there is more profit to be made. Now assuming that a privitization scheme comes in and takes over public school buildings entirely, then at the outset your right. My point is that a private orginization DOES NOT and is not bound to have seats for every child in the community.. therefore, there is no guarantee that they will expand schools or build new ones should the need arise. There is no guarantee that the schools they take or build will have enough seats for all the children in the community. AGain.. if a private industries primary purpose is to generate profits, then what sense would it make for a comppany to produce too much or enough to drive the asking price down?
Again.,.. I refer you to healthcare and health insurance and competition. Yes, insurance can not trade over state lines which adds to the cost because of less competition.. but guess what.. schools are even MORE limited in how they can compete for consumer dollars. The competition may only be limited to one or two in the area, because you certainly arent' going tosend your kid across the state or to another state entirely because they offer cheaper school tuition?
Why can't schools compete across state lines with a private or even voucher system? I live 10 minutes from the state line...my kids could go there as well.
OK, this will sound harsh. Some kids don't deserve to go to school with others. By the time some kids get to high school they have felony convictions!! The kids that no decent school wants should get to go to some sort of military style boot camp education so they can learn to be productive members of their community instead of gangster thugs. Yes, private schools should get to decide (without discrimination based on race, gender, etc.) who attends their school.....no hugs for thugs!!
I agree with you. Students who committ felonies, do drugs and are extremely behaviourly disruptive need to be sent to Juvenile Hall, boot camp you name it! Let's remember something. School is mandatory.. wether it is privitized or public schools will be mandatory! That means that a kid must go to school somewhere. If you have no Private schools willing to take on thugs education, then you will have to have a public system to take in those offenders. So then guess what.. you'll now be paying for a private school education and you will also have to pay taxes to fund the education of those thugs that get kicked out of school
OK, is this good enough for you....like any other program, the government would have to provide a safety net for any families unable to secure funding (either paid for on their own or funding via scholarships, grants, etc.) but I don't think the need will be as great as you suggest. However, the problem is that when the government gets to handing out freebies more people will line up who really don't 'need' the help, they may have other options. In the end, you will have to decide to what extent to punish parents who act irresponsibly and do not provide funds for thier childs education when such funds are available (ie, they buy a new car but then don't have enough to pay tuition, or take a Disney Vacation but then ask for government help to fund education). It will be like our current 'healthcare crisis' where some people have not made having health insurance a priority, then get sick with no insurance and claim it is a 'healthcare crisis'. The number of folks who can not afford healthcare and are not eligible for some sort of government assistance is very few. Most of the people who make up the 'crisis' are just making bad choices. I expect that same group would have an 'education crisis' as well.
Really.. man you are OUT OF TOuCH with reality. This isn't the thread for a healthcare debate.. I've participated in all of them... Let's just put it this way.. Family plans are $1300/month. That's pretty good coverage with lets say a $700 deductable and $20/40 copay for primary/specialist and then 10/20/40 for drug coverage. That's $15600/year for one family for their premium alone. ON a high end of the middle income range, which is approx $60K for family and that is 23% of their salary!!! 23% of someones income for health insurance. That is like paying two mortgages (given that housing is supposed to be 35% of your household budget). Do you know many middle income families that can pay two mortgages!!!
But alas.. you go to exactly why a privitization scheme wouldn't work.. for exactly the reasons you stated. Because we'd have all the problems that you mentioend.. who can or can't really afford it.. and then everyone will be calling education an "entitlement " program, etc etc etc. YOU actually gave an argument as to why having a privitization scheme would be just one big headache and would complicate so many things and issues.
You haven't sufficiently addressed your claims that secondary education is unaffordable for most. I don't know why your siblings couldn't manage it, but your general analysis based on their experience alone isn't accurate. A 4 year degree takes 4 years (can be done in less), unless you aren't carrying a full work load. Your parents shouldn't be paying anything beyond that (if even paying for that).
Turn on the news, turn on the TV and listen to what's going on. Many families are struggling to pay and afford college education! Everyone needs to pull the rose colored glasses off. My brothers paid their loans or are paying their loans.. but in this current financial situaiton many people will not have loans available to them. Costs of education are rising at a faster tick too. Etc.
But again.. this isn't about college education. That is a choice and is not neccesarily needed for you to be a productive member of society. But an elementary education and secondary education are.
Watch how many people end up on welfare when you privitize and schools become unaffordable for alot of people. Then we'll really have a bleed on the welfare system.
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