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what about the guy that studied his rear end off, aced every test he ever took, went on to be the star player in some dynamic organization, and still hates his job? is that improvident?
I say his situation is a result of his choices, and he should not get paid extra just to hate his job less. Only his performance has economic value -- not his feelings. And yes -- working one's rear end off to attain an occupation one hates is clearly improvident.
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Originally Posted by stycotl
what about the same guy that, despite his success, can't wait to retire, and open a bakery?
I say, let him do what he wants, but he does not deserve extra pay just because he can't wait to retire. Lots of people can't wait to retire -- again, one's feelings about one's job are not a legitimate reason to increase the wages.
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Originally Posted by stycotl
what about the industry leader that wishes he would have served in the military right out of high school instead of college?
Please reread the original post. I don't see how regretting one's own choice entitles a person to higher pay.
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Originally Posted by stycotl
what about the down syndrome guy that is smarter than you or i, but can't get above minimum wage from any employer in town?
This guy has plentiful legal recourse against his employer. But, again, he does not deserve any extra pay for having DS.
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Originally Posted by stycotl
what about the artist that lost her arms in a car accident, or the football player that broke his back?
Again, these people have legal recourse, and they should not be discriminated against or paid less than what their performance is actually worth -- but they shouldn't be paid more, either.
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Originally Posted by stycotl
it seems to me that you are content in lumping *millions* of people into a single group because of the emotional response to childhood trauma. i don't think that to be the basis of a sound argument.
It seems to me you had a knee-jerk reaction to my comment. Not only does your reply fall far short of a "sound argument" -- it is merely a bunch of rhetorical questions completely irrelevant to OP's subject: whether people stuck in menial, boring, dirty, disguisting, etc. jobs should be paid extra, over and above their jobs' market value, to compensate them for the unpleasant nature of their occupations.
I say his situation is a result of his choices, and he should not get paid extra just to hate his job less. Only his performance has economic value -- not his feelings. And yes -- working one's rear end off to attain an occupation one hates is clearly improvident.
I say, let him do what he wants, but he does not deserve extra pay just because he can't wait to retire. Lots of people can't wait to retire -- again, one's feelings about one's job are not a legitimate reason to increase the wages.
Please reread the original post. I don't see how regretting one's own choice entitles a person to higher pay.
This guy has plentiful legal recourse against his employer. But, again, he does not deserve any extra pay for having DS.
Again, these people have legal recourse, and they should not be discriminated against or paid less than what their performance is actually worth -- but they shouldn't be paid more, either.
It seems to me you had a knee-jerk reaction to my comment. Not only does your reply fall far short of a "sound argument" -- it is merely a bunch of rhetorical questions completely irrelevant to OP's subject: whether people stuck in menial, boring, dirty, disguisting, etc. jobs should be paid extra, over and above their jobs' market value, to compensate them for the unpleasant nature of their occupations.
i do clearly remember the op, and so am not inclined to reread it as you suggest. my post is not meant to offend you, so try not to get riled up. i merely want to see some form of validation for what i perceived to be erroneous reasoning.
i certainly went off on a tangent, but it was directly related to one of your assertions:
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but they don't deserve any extra cash for making choices that left them stuck in menial jobs.
so i merely asked what you think about those that do not fit your over-generalization. they were not rhetorical in that i wanted you to answer from your perspective.
i never said anything about any of the above examples needing extra pay for their disabilities, etc. in all honesty, i think that improvident living does merit the survival-of-the-fittest consequences. my concern is that you seemed to lump anyone with a 'menial' employment into that category, without attention to those that are there to no fault of their own, and without attention to those that are actually happy there and would rather be there than in a white-collar job.
either way, i actually agree with you; stupid choices shouldn't be rewarded. but there needs to be a logical delineation between what really is a lazy, apathetic person in a menial job, and the down-your-nose view of the rest of the world that some elitists hold of everyone poorer than them.
As I see here in my private office at work, looking at my last paycheck stub I feel lucky. It is sure nice to have my own office and the ability to do interesting work for a very good paycheck. I am extremely intelligent and talented (according to all my employers), so getting my great job and training for it was really easy. In the world of work, I have been really lucky.
On the other hand, I have some old friends from High School who are not as talented and intelligent. Or did they go for additional training or college after they graduated from High School. They are all making less than $10.00 an hour to do some of the dirtiest nastiest jobs in our society. If they were looking for ideas for the television show "Dirty Jobs" my friends would be great candidates. Dirty Jobs : Discovery Channel
All of them are quite bitter with how poorly they are paid and their lot in life. All of them are Fathers and do not have the time to go back to school to learn a new trade, so they will be doing their dirty ugly boring jobs until they retire. Many work two jobs to survive.
Should society put more attention on these people and pay them more just because their work is so dirty ugly and nasty?
I write this from the comfort of my air conditioned office making three times what they do for playing with the Internet.
(I also make my employer lots of money through my talent as a Management Consutant and Trainer. )
I think you're arrogant and not exactly doing what your employer is paying you to do (posting on C-D) and you should be fired. (Yeah, I know - I'm on here too.)
and i work from my home on the internet, and can take breaks whenever i decide that i want to chase my kid around the house. but that doesn't make me any better or more providential than my father-in-law who has been installing and fixing phone cables for his adult life. in fact, if money were somehow (in accordance with the wishes of some people that we all know) the factor that determines worth, before this financial crisis, he had almost a million dollars in stocks and savings, just from saving up his and his wife's (a school teacher) paychecks, and spending frugally--which is certainly more than i have in the bank. nowadays, i have no clue how much his accounts and stocks are worth, thanks to the white-collar, superman-complex criminals that think that they are so much better than all of us 'peons' down here in the real world.
As I see here in my private office at work, looking at my last paycheck stub I feel lucky. It is sure nice to have my own office and the ability to do interesting work for a very good paycheck. I am extremely intelligent and talented (according to all my employers), so getting my great job and training for it was really easy. In the world of work, I have been really lucky.
On the other hand, I have some old friends from High School who are not as talented and intelligent. Or did they go for additional training or college after they graduated from High School. They are all making less than $10.00 an hour to do some of the dirtiest nastiest jobs in our society. If they were looking for ideas for the television show "Dirty Jobs" my friends would be great candidates. Dirty Jobs : Discovery Channel
All of them are quite bitter with how poorly they are paid and their lot in life. All of them are Fathers and do not have the time to go back to school to learn a new trade, so they will be doing their dirty ugly boring jobs until they retire. Many work two jobs to survive.
Should society put more attention on these people and pay them more just because their work is so dirty ugly and nasty?
I write this from the comfort of my air conditioned office making three times what they do for playing with the Internet.
(I also make my employer lots of money through my talent as a Management Consutant and Trainer. )
As I see here in my private office at work, looking at my last paycheck stub I feel lucky. It is sure nice to have my own office and the ability to do interesting work for a very good paycheck. I am extremely intelligent and talented (according to all my employers), so getting my great job and training for it was really easy. In the world of work, I have been really lucky.
On the other hand, I have some old friends from High School who are not as talented and intelligent. Or did they go for additional training or college after they graduated from High School. They are all making less than $10.00 an hour to do some of the dirtiest nastiest jobs in our society. If they were looking for ideas for the television show "Dirty Jobs" my friends would be great candidates. Dirty Jobs : Discovery Channel
All of them are quite bitter with how poorly they are paid and their lot in life. All of them are Fathers and do not have the time to go back to school to learn a new trade, so they will be doing their dirty ugly boring jobs until they retire. Many work two jobs to survive.
Should society put more attention on these people and pay them more just because their work is so dirty ugly and nasty?
I write this from the comfort of my air conditioned office making three times what they do for playing with the Internet.
(I also make my employer lots of money through my talent as a Management Consutant and Trainer. )
It almost sounds as if you'd be spiteful if society's interest in those "dirty" jobs resulted in higher wages for those who you feel are less talented and intelligent than you. At least you recognize you're fortunate. And you should probably consider yourself lucky as well... nobody is guaranteed work in today's society, no matter how talented or intelligent they may be. Your success will always be based on decisions, hard work, risk, and some luck in America. We're all one minute away from crisis, no matter how prepared or fortunate we think we are.
Personally, I think pro athletes are overpaid. But who am I (or we) to dictate what they get paid? Same goes for the dirty jobs. The market will set their wage for them, whether it seems "fair" or not. Education, intelligence, hard work, and skill don't always play a major role in what people get paid. Some people are gifted in certain ways that make them more money. Some know the right people. Some are lucky. That's just life I suppose. But it never hurts to prepare yourself as much as possible.
I see myself as being fortunate. But I suppose I'm the type of person that would see that no matter what type of work I did. I know there will always be someone out there struggling more than me. Do work you enjoy doing. That's always the best bet.
My trade has a reputation for being expensive. I hear it a LOT. Plumbers have to deal with things that no one in a stable state of mind really wants to do. I'm self employed and I charge $65.00 an hour for my services. I've been bitten by Black Widows, stung by scorpions to many times to count, ran into skunks..on and on. And I follow what gets flushed down toilets. I figger my rates are fair considering what I have to put up with and plumbing also requires a good amount of knowledge. So I guess I feel that pay should generally be consistent with ones abilities and working conditions. But there are exeptions to every rule. Slinging a shovel in a ditch doesn't entitle one to 20 bucks an hour just because it's dusty and hot. There needs to be some skill involved in the job also before pay increases.
I think many jobs could be considered underpaid, but the economics of the position and market do dictate the average wage. Say for example we all feel that teachers should be paid a lot more for their services. Okay, so where is this money going to come from? In our area, the vast majority of the school district's budget comes from the local taxpayer who doesn't want to see their taxes increase a single dime. To pay teachers more while avoiding a tax increase means that we'll have to cut costs elsewhere - maybe the arts programs. That same taxpayer principle goes to the people running the trucks for Waste Service Management and police officers in law enforcement. They perform an important service to the public but there are budgets based on the taxes we pay and we just can't give everyone more money because we feel they deserve it.
If you want to pay tradespeople more for their services, the cost will show up in the bill. With a free market, shoppers will look for good deals and this will have an effect on how much is allocated to pay. I'm sure the lawn guy deserves more for cutting my lawn but I'm not going to pay $200 per month when I can pay $100 - for the same job - from five other competitors.
I do not think anyone here is asking that people with these jobs get payed 20 dollars an hour. Just enough so they can afford housing, food, transportation the basics.
Should society put more attention on these people and pay them more just because their work is so dirty ugly and nasty?
Never. Wages are determined by Supply & Demand, and they should be, except when Congress interferes.
They made their choice in life, they have to live with it. Anytime they wanted, they could attain more advanced training and skills. They can go to night school at the local high school or vocational school for training in HVAC, auto maintenance, MIG/TIG welding and a host of other fields, but they just don't wanna. That's fine, but they can't whine about their income either.
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