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Old 05-11-2009, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 35,215,401 times
Reputation: 4899

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
No. It might surprise you to learn that I've never even been charged with rape.
Obviously, you are very obtuse. As an attorney, I have defended men charged with rape.

But then again - you knew what I was saying - I guess you just like playing stupid.

Then again ........

 
Old 05-11-2009, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Tri-Cities, TN
149 posts, read 358,820 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
No, I litigate the issues. I have defended individuals charged with rape. Have you?

Maybe that's why I dislike lawyers as much as I dislike cops, they say one thing and then defend "the honest, law abiding, and up-standing citizen" that has done the complete opposite.

Oh boy, oh boy, if only our founding fathers could see us now
 
Old 05-11-2009, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 35,215,401 times
Reputation: 4899
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBradley View Post
Maybe that's why I dislike lawyers as much as I dislike cops, they say one thing and then defend "the honest, law abiding, and up-standing citizen" that has done the complete opposite.

Oh boy, oh boy, if only our founding fathers could see us now
Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that everyone had the right to a fair trial (I understand the word fair is subjective).

I'm one of those who generally does not ask my client if they did the crime they are accused of (there are various schools of thought on doing this). If I'm going to defend someone, I don't want a bias to impact my job.

I understand what you are saying though - there are many attorneys who criticize other lawyers for the type of clients they represent. Your feelings are not limited merely to .... "civilians".
 
Old 05-11-2009, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,305,504 times
Reputation: 36087
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBradley View Post
Maybe that's why I dislike lawyers as much as I dislike cops, they say one thing and then defend "the honest, law abiding, and up-standing citizen" that has done the complete opposite.

Oh boy, oh boy, if only our founding fathers could see us now
Please post your reasons for believing that Greatday's clients were guilty.
 
Old 05-11-2009, 05:34 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,308,124 times
Reputation: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
You asked about "date rape". You said a woman gave "permission" when she allowed clothing to be removed.

You were, and are, wrong.

The man can, and if reported, will, be charged with rape if the woman, at any time, says "NO" and the man forces sex upon the woman or, even if a sexual act has started, continues that sexual act after the woman rescinded permission by saying "NO".
I agree, except that sooner or later there is a "point of no return" and generally this deflects accountability away (something we already have far too much of these days) from the woman. We can debate where that line is or should be drawn, but there is one w/o a doubt.

ie basically she needs to make up her damn mind; do you want to have sex w/this guy or not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Charged, yes. Convicted, theoretically, only if it can be proven to a jury of his peers beyond a reasonable doubt that she said "no". Who has the onus of proof?

The OP here is the question of whether it is appropriate that a man "will be charged with rape" on absolutely no evidence whatsoever besides "she said". Nobody questions that he will be. The question is, should he be?

In other words, is it justice when a man is criminally charged with doing something, without any corroborating evidence whatsoever, that a person waits until the next day and then says he did, after reconsidering a scenario into which the accuser entered volountarily?

You don't see any room at all here for a woman to use this provision of the law to redress a completely different grievance she might have with an innocent man?
Exactly.


Quote:
If a woman says a man raped her, he is presumed guilty and must prove himself innocent. Formally charged by the state, on her testimony alone, which he must prove false. How do you do that?
er innocent until proven guilty applies even in Texas FYI.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Redisca View Post
You previously stated that a sexual act isn't rape even if accomplished through physical force or duress.
No he didn't. But seems to me you're too busy seeing red and attacking him to bother reading anything he's said objectively - eg you're ignoring the qualifiers he stated earlier here. PS I don't agree with some of what he's said, but I abhor it when people twist words, esp just because they want to "get" the other person.

Quote:
(Just as an interesting aside, I note that under the definition you've given, it isn't rape to penetrate a woman who is unconscious, comatose, or paralyzed.)
That's not at all interesting since it's false, not to mention ludicrous and more playing games w/words vs intellectual honesty.

Last edited by joey2000; 05-11-2009 at 05:55 PM..
 
Old 05-11-2009, 06:24 PM
 
298 posts, read 638,996 times
Reputation: 176
Answers in bold green

[quote=jtur88;8727311]Do you have any regard for what the falsely-accused go through?

Yes, that is a horrible situation to be in. It's not as horrible (or as prevalent) as the many rapes that occur every day, but it is horrible.

Do you have a problem with a justice system in which solid evidence is required to send a person to prison for the rest of his life?

If you believe the burden of proof is inadequate in a rape case, please explain why. Regardless of what you think about evidence in a rape trial, the crimes of rape vs falsely accusing someone of rape are not equal and do not deserve the same sentences.

By the way, exactly what is "date rape"? What is your definition? No gray area, no fuzzy edges. What exactly is the difference between "date rape", and a women with self-esteem issues who went out for a good time, voluntarily drank too much and the next day, has second thoughts about what she let somebody to to her. And is the difference that you offer---is that a big and clear enough difference to distinguish a guy who gets off scot free and one who spends 20 years in prison?

Date rape refers, generally speaking, to a situation where a person was raped by their date. It can also be used to refer to a situation where the woman was drugged by her date so that she would not be able to refuse to have sex with him. In any case, I define a date rape as a situation where a woman is forced by some means to have sex against her will or without her consent by her date.

Note that I am using the word "he" for rapist. However, women can be convicted of rape as well. Also, not all rape victims are adults. I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not.

A First – Woman Convicted of Rape « Toy Soldiers

Here is a legal definition of rape (which, contrary to a later post by you has in fact changed through history.)

Rape legal definition of Rape. Rape synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.



Does a woman who lets a man partly undress her, or partly undresses herself, ever have a right to accuse someone of "date rape"?

Yes, an obvious example is that guys (or gals) are not allowed to force strippers to have sex just because the strippers' clothes are removed. In any case, if a woman partly undresses but refuses to have sex and the guy forces himself on her, he is guilty of rape.

Are women aware, if they wish to go out on dates and not be date-raped, that they can easily and inexpensively purchase underwear that it would be impossible to remove or penetrate without an extreme degree of physical force, which could easily be shown to be rape? A woman who leaves home for a good time wearing a lacy thong is not a convincing accuser. It's like a woman going dancing in shoes two sizes too small, and blaming her date for her sore feet.

Are women aware that a poster who calls him or herself jtur88 does not know what rape is? Well, they certainly are now that you've written this. Men are not forced to rape women. Rape is the act that is forced on someone.

I'm not taking about dressing attractively or alluringly or fashionably---I'm talking about dressing invisibly in such a way that the underwear comes off quickly and easily if voluntary, or with clinical signs of trauma if involuntary. Pretty easy case to prove, either way.

Dressing invisibly - like a stripper perhaps? This is actually irrelevant to both the rules regarding evidence of rape and a determination of whether rape has in fact occurred. Any undergarment can have evidence of rape, as can a woman who had no undergarment on. If a woman does not report the crime quickly and if she washes any undergarment after the rape (perhaps for fear of social backlash or because she is in shock or has not been educated about what to do after being raped) then the DNA evidence can be destroyed. QUOTE]
 
Old 05-11-2009, 06:40 PM
 
19,078 posts, read 21,918,909 times
Reputation: 13432
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
By the way, exactly what is "date rape"? What is your definition? No gray area, no fuzzy edges. What exactly is the difference between "date rape", and a women with self-esteem issues who went out for a good time, voluntarily drank too much and the next day, has second thoughts about what she let somebody to to her. And is the difference that you offer---is that a big and clear enough difference to distinguish a guy who gets off scot free and one who spends 20 years in prison?
It's pretty simple as others have pointed out; sex without consent.
 
Old 05-11-2009, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,305,504 times
Reputation: 36087
HSV, you have twice introduce a stripper into your argument to switch the scenario to one that is not analogous to people who have established personal intimacy with each other. You know that is not relevant, and does nothing to support your argument. In fact it gives the appearance that you have nothing but straws to clutch at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
It's pretty simple as others have pointed out; sex without consent.
The OP of this thread is, in fact, "sex in which somebody falsely says there was no consent".
 
Old 05-11-2009, 06:53 PM
 
298 posts, read 638,996 times
Reputation: 176
Answers in bold green.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2000 View Post
?? That makes no sense. Why? You realize I'm saying a woman would have to be proven to have made a false accusation, right? I kinda doubt someone who has actually been raped is in any danger of that.

Yes, I realize there would need to be proof for a conviction. However, let's look at what proof generally is (see link in next section I wrote below.) What is necessary to show the woman lied in an ordinary rape case? Given an unpredictable jury, this is a real threat to a raped woman. Not necessarily very likely, but definitely real. If you combined that with a much harsher sentence than the crime warrants, this could easily be a deterrent to women who might otherwise report a crime.


?? It would be entirely just. Without severe consequences, you have what we have now, women using this "weapon" to falsely accuse and potentially have a guy end up in prison for something he didn't do. And why not? They have precious little to lose. Further, even if the guy is acquitted, there is always some doubt in people's minds and he is damaged no matter what. But with the threat of a much more severe penalty as a possible backfire, many (most) women would think twice.

Actually, most women aren't falsely accusing men of rape. Most women are either not reporting rape, or they are reporting a rape that actually happened.

False accusations - Jim Hines (http://www.xyonline.net/Hines_False_accusations.shtml - broken link)


Lots of people on this forum seem to just love the "I disagree with you; therefore you are clueless."


Is that an argument against the viewpoint I expressed? Wow, that's a good argument.

You apparently don't even know what this thread is about. FYI the title is "What do you think of women who make false accusations?" not "what do you think about woman who are raped?" I notice that your entire reply doesn't even address the question which is the topic of this thread.

FYI Obviously I think that they should not get the same sentence as rapists. FYI that's why I posted. FYI that is relevant to the thread. k:

And you came to that conclusion how? And even if true, so if there aren't "many" (whatever that means) to hell w/the guys who are put in prison or marked by society because of being set up by these women eh? Great plan.

No, actually, if you would research the topic, there are consequences for falsely accusing someone. The plan is to have the penalty fit the crime.

"Social backlash?" I very seriously doubt it in this day and age.

Actually, it's very common in this day and age, whether you doubt it or not. Here are a few of many examples.

Archive » Anonymity for rape victims… » Ethics cases online
Appleton gang rape case shows delays in reporting are the norm | Postcrescent.com | Appleton Post-Crescent
Victims of Rape Defy the Stigma
Some Shed Rape Stigma By Speaking
 
Old 05-11-2009, 06:55 PM
 
298 posts, read 638,996 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
HSV, you have twice introduce a stripper into your argument to switch the scenario to one that is not analogous to people who have established personal intimacy with each other. You know that is not relevant, and does nothing to support your argument. In fact it gives the appearance that you have nothing but straws to clutch at.
Your argument was that if a woman removes her clothes or if she allows them to be removed (say, for a private lap dance for instance?) then the man is allowed to do whatever he wants. I applied your faulty logic to an example. Who's grasping at straws here?
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