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Old 06-02-2009, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 5,395,985 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
[] BINGO!
It appears that most decision makers, in private and public power, look for short term solutions, short term profits, and the long term is left to flounder.

We had an inkling of the problems, in the 1973 oil embargo, when we were importing 35% of our consumption. And yet after millions of dollars spent by the Department of Energy (allegedly formed to cut our dependence on foreign oil), we now import 70% of our consumption.

God help us if government creates any new agencies to "tackle THE problem".
Jet, I don't understand your issue with money. Could you explain that in detail, so I can understand too? Please be complete in your explanation, as I want to understand it in detail.
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Old 06-02-2009, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,021 posts, read 14,198,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Jet, I don't understand your issue with money. Could you explain that in detail, so I can understand too? Please be complete in your explanation, as I want to understand it in detail.
A Money Primer for Non-Insane People

MONEY IS:
[1] A medium of exchange

[2] An accounting symbol

[3] Proportional to the marketplace
MONEY HAS:
[4] No intrinsic value outside of the marketplace
MONEY IS NOT:
[5] real
MONEY CANNOT:
[6] be saved

[7] be invested,at usury, in a finite money token system

[8] be owned, in the sense that it can be bought and sold
MONEY SHOULD NOT:
[9] be limited or under restriction, save that of the marketplace

[10] be under the control of parasites (government, usurers)

[11] be worshiped

[12] be a goal of one's life
[1,2,3] Whether you realize it or not, money is a medium of exchange that facilitates the creation and trade of usable (surplus) goods and services. It is a mechanism that simplifies trade of different items, services, and volumes. As an accounting symbol, for the value of all goods and services in the marketplace, it must be proportional to that marketplace. If it ceases to be proportional, then someone will suffer inequitable trade.

[4] Money, as an accounting system, has no function if there is nothing in the marketplace. Without a marketplace, money cannot facilitate trade. A sum of money without anything to buy has no value.

[5] An accounting system, by which one tracks sum of items, goods, and services, should not be something from within the marketplace. In fact, if one uses an item taken from the marketplace, a mathematical error will occur. In set theory, if M(money) is proportional to S (sum of all goods / services), making anything from S, will generate a paradox. For example, if G (gold) is deemed to be the preferred money token, and it is 1% of the whole Sum, we can set up the equation:

G = (.01 S)

BUT

We must now make G have a value proportional to the whole set (S), so that we can trade.

G (proportional to) S.

So 1/10 G can buy 1/10 S.

HOWEVER

Gold, which is 1% of Sum of all, can buy all. Yet G is a subset of S.

G = (.01S), so (0.01S) = S.

One percent of the gold, as "money",can buy all the gold (which represents 1% of S).

See the problem now?

"Hard money" requires insanity to function. Anything of intrinsic value from within the marketplace cannot be used as money. Especially since the marketplace varies,disproportionate to the item deemed to be money.

[6] If money is a mechanism to account for value, facilitate trade, and is proportional to the marketplace, you cannot "save" it. Taking money out of circulation only prevents it from its function – moving goods and services equitably. In fact, the more money taken out of circulation by hoarding / saving, the less trade can occur, since there is not enough money tokens to facilitate trade. By making money scarce (disproportionate to the marketplace), the sellers cannot sell, or must accept LESS money. If they cannot sell, they suffer. And if have to accept less money, they cannot equitably trade (nor pay outstanding bills).

[7] Though we might think we're"saving" money when we deposit it with bankers (usurers), buy bonds (usury) or "invest" it in stock corporations, for interest (usury), we are not. The money is put into circulation, facilitating trade. The usurer charges a fee, in money, for the use of that money, and pays a portion to the investor.

However, if the money token system is finite (as is precious metal coin), aggregate usury is impossible to pay. The sum of principle and interest owed exceeds the whole set of available money tokens. A proportion of debtors will default, simply because the money does not exist. And they will lose their valuable property pledged as collateral on the debt. That is why usury is proscribed as an abomination, and denounced by almost all religions.

When we're told that it's "wise to invest", mathematics says we are unwise.

For example, if "everybody" invested 10% of their money, within one time unit of usury, the resulting debt would be impossible to discharge.


Let S (whole sum of money), and
0.1 S (10% invested, at usury), for
10% simple interest per time unit,
computes to:

Interest: 1.1 x (0.1 S) = 0.11 S

BUT

Add the usury to the remaining money supply and an error exists.
0.9 S + 0.11 S = 1.01 S

To pay the usury, the money supply (S) would have to grow 1%. If the supply is static, investors will be unpaid, debtors will default.

This problem is compounded when the money token is borrowed into existence at usury. Each unit created imposes an obligation for more money, which, in turn, can only be created by greater debt. Ergo, debt-credit money tokens are catastrophic tools that destroy productive societies for the benefit of parasites and predators.

[* special note : in America's case, the bimetallic standard was another disaster in the making. A simple solution would be to make the unit dollar a silver coin, and designate a gold coin as an eagle, without stipulating any proportionality, by law. That way, the market value of the silver to gold would not create havoc. Contracts payable in dollars might be negotiated with eagles, but that would be a private agreement, not imposed by statutory law.]

[8] There are many people who believe that money must have an intrinsic value, such as precious metal (gold, silver, platinum) or it violates religious law. However, I sincerely doubt that God would impose a money token system that cannot function equitably. The marketplace of goods and services can always grow larger from
(a) rising population of laborers,
(b) tools that multiply the labor, and
(c) automation that produces goods and services without additional input of labor. If the money token system is finite, composed of scarce precious metal coin, it will impose chaos. The harder you work or produce, the less money you earn. If you are in debt, the harder you work, or produce, the less you earn, and thus cannot pay your creditor. Scarce money is a recipe for economic disaster. In fact, scarcity of money drives demand for credit, at usury, offered by bankers.

Therefore, a sound money system (honest accounting) cannot be composed of any "thing" that can be bought or sold in the marketplace, if equitable trade is to exist. It would be as absurd as charging a fee to make each tick mark on a tablet, used to keep score.

[9] For a "free market" to truly exist, the medium of exchange has to be free to grow / shrink in proportion to it. If any disproportionality exists, either the seller or the buyer will be cheated. Those who can manipulate the illusion of abstract money can enrich themselves at the expense of others. Mankind has suffered from the predation of usurers for millennia. And we still willingly cooperate with those who prey upon us. Worse, we are indoctrinated to copy them, and debase ourselves, and "run with the pack". And it's no surprise when folks are "thrown to the wolves!"

One way that the supply of money tokens can adjust is when producers / laborers of new goods and services can issue private promissory notes (ex: coupons) denominated in that which they can do, have or produce. A farmer can issue notes denominated in harvest, or animals, or products. Laborers can issue notes denominated in hours of labor or specific services. Enterprises can issue notes, denominated in that which they offer. A restaurant can issue notes, denominated in meals, or other services.

When the note is tendered to the maker, it is extinguished when the trade is completed. If an entrepreneur needs to purchase goods or services, but has no "money", he can emit promises (notes) to capitalize. He need not beg for debt-credit, at usury, from a bankster. He then discharges his promises, when his enterprise is up and running, without the burden of usury, nor the requirement to fight for a share of scarce money tokens.

[10] A money system should not be under the control of parasites (government, usurers), who produce no goods nor services. A government may offer its services for oversight and offering recourse and remedy, in the pursuit of justice (giving everyman his due).

A private promissory note money token system, by itself, would probably be limited in scope to a local community, where the people knew the credit worthiness of the note makers.

For a larger marketplace, a widely circulating note / money token, is necessary. A bank, acting as a note warehouse, may be one solution. A note could be tendered, discounted by the bank, and bank notes given in exchange. There would be no pressure to create new money tokens, because there would be no usury, nor compound interest. The bank can either tender the note for discharge (making profit from the discount) or sell it to another.

[11] Obviously, we've been taught to worship money, chase after it, be persuaded to act against our better natures, by it. That must change. And the first place change occurs is within each individual.

[12] We must all awaken from the nightmare where money was the goal of one's life work. True prosperity is the creation of usable goods and services, their exchange, and the time to enjoy those goods and services. Any other activity is counterproductive, including war, usury, theft, and parasitism.

Addendum : Why usury is mathematically impossible to pay

In 1836 John Whipple, an American lawyer, showed the impossibility of sustaining long term metallic usury:
" If 5 English pennies... had been... at 5 per cent compound interest from the beginning of the Christian era until the present time, it would amount in gold of standard fineness to 32,366,648,157 spheres of gold each eight thousand miles in diameter, or as large as the earth."
[Translation - impossible to pay]


"Poker Parable"
Imagine a Friday night poker game, where the host gives each player 100 chips as he arrives, with the requirement to pay him 101 chips at the end of the gaming - or forfeit something of value in case of default. As the games come to an end, the "winners" can easily pay their 101 chips and depart, but the losers can't even repay the original 100, let alone 101 chips, and are therefore deprived of their valuables pledged to the host. Since the host controls the finite sum of tokens, it is a certainty that a some players will lose their chips and property. THAT IS THE EVIL OF USURY. The usurer wins either way, because the "game" is rigged. In any finite money token system, the aggregate (combined) usury requires that an INCREASE in money tokens be created else a proportion will default not because they're bad, incompetent, or pitiful, but because usury is impossible to pay in a finite money token system.

When a business goes bankrupt or a laborer defaults, we are led to assume that the defaulter made some mistake. They did - but it was contracting with usurers, not their productive ability, that sealed their fate.

More on USURY
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Old 06-02-2009, 07:37 PM
 
Location: A Nation Possessed
25,713 posts, read 18,788,778 times
Reputation: 22562
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
A Money Primer for Non-Insane People

...

More on USURY
As much a proponent of personal freedom as I am, I have to agree with you on this usury (interest loan) issue. In my ‘perfect world’ usury would be forbidden and considered on par with common thievery. What we now accept as standard financial procedure was called loan sharking not so long ago. It’s predatory and no less reprehensible than the activities of any other organized crime.
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,138 posts, read 22,810,657 times
Reputation: 14116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Worley View Post
The people who came up with this just wanted an excuse not to buy Christmas presents for everyone in 2012.

No!!! why must you thwart my anti-consumerist agenda at every turn?!
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Old 06-03-2009, 11:05 AM
 
1,048 posts, read 2,387,771 times
Reputation: 421
^That's just how I roll.
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Old 06-03-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 5,395,985 times
Reputation: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Worley View Post
^That's just how I roll.
Do you roll uphill as well as downhill? (LOL).
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Old 06-03-2009, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,954,125 times
Reputation: 36644
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Seems to me we need (and soon...) a small-community agrarian-based reorganization. A total North American (Mexico, Canada & The US) population of 150 million, well distributed. Total world population, with sufficient work & sustainable resources for everyone: 2 billion.
What is the WMD of choice?
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:19 PM
 
1,048 posts, read 2,387,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcashley View Post
Do you roll uphill as well as downhill? (LOL).
I do a slow roll uphill, but I get there.
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Old 06-03-2009, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Under a bridge.
3,196 posts, read 5,395,985 times
Reputation: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Worley View Post
I do a slow roll uphill, but I get there.
Very good. LOL!!!
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Old 06-03-2009, 08:02 PM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,458,172 times
Reputation: 4799
4.5 billion years.... Come on how long do you think another dominant species would last, money has everything to do with it. All wars are economic. Good luck to the survivors... Maybe it'll be the smartest of us all and an extraordinary sentient species will be born and we can bypass all this nonsense we have now...

The earth is dated most accurately using isotopes and radioactive elements. Why not go out with the same bang that kept us radiating with heat...

Last edited by BigJon3475; 06-03-2009 at 08:11 PM..
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