Nubia birthed Egypt (country, civilizations, civilization, ancestors)

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by oberon_1

Wait, now I am struggling to decode these posts.
Correct me if I am wrong: Unbreakable supports a theory which claims ancient Egyptians came from Sudan and were dark skinned... So far, I don't have evidence for the opposite. Anyway, it seems he has a personal issue with that. Is he an Egyptian? A Sundanese? And if so, why would he be pissed off? For some reason he apparently cannot phrase his claim in few words.
Can anyone help?

He says the ancient Egyptians came from northern Sudan. Current evidence supports his assertions. He has provided more than enough information to validate that point. The rest of the question as far as his ethnic background or national origin don't seem to be relevant/pertinent to the topic at hand.

[oberon_1]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

He says the ancient Egyptians came from northern Sudan. Current evidence supports his assertions. He has provided more than enough information to validate that point. The rest of the question as far as his ethnic background or national origin don't seem to be relevant/pertinent to the topic at hand.

But they are, otherwise wasting all that energy makes no sense. He seems obsessed with the topic and posted endless "defending" posts about his theory. That is the point where I lost him. Would you spend years collecting data about a certain type of people who lived 5000 years ago? Would you be pissed if I disagreed that your ancestors from 5000 ago lived in northern Italy or Spain? I guess at some point my ancestors were probably primates in Africa. But if you say they came from Asia, so be it. Neither of us would make great efforts to prove it one way or another. So (and I don't get it) if he has no personal connection to ancient Egyptians, why bother?

[Felix C]

^^#71 He also claimed other points which are contentious and has done so in the past here. I always say to be aware of the language one uses in posting because they own it once it is posted. It is unfortunate a person may have valid points but they diminish their standing by behaving in an uncivil manner. (There is a small window to edit for typos, punctuation, clarity but I am referring to the use of language)

[PJSaturn]

Originally Posted by Wild Style

He says the ancient Egyptians came from northern Sudan. Current evidence supports his assertions. He has provided more than enough information to validate that point. The rest of the question as far as his ethnic background or national origin don't seem to be relevant/pertinent to the topic at hand.

This ^ (bolded) is true. Please stay on topic, folks.
.

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by oberon_1

But they are, otherwise wasting all that energy makes no sense. He seems obsessed with the topic and posted endless "defending" posts about his theory. That is the point where I lost him. Would you spend years collecting data about a certain type of people who lived 5000 years ago? Would you be pissed if I disagreed that your ancestors from 5000 ago lived in northern Italy or Spain? I guess at some point my ancestors were probably primates in Africa. But if you say they came from Asia, so be it. Neither of us would make great efforts to prove it one way or another. So (and I don't get it) if he has no personal connection to ancient Egyptians, why bother?

Thats your opinion and in the grand scheme of things your opinion doesn't mean much. Why do you waste time on the internet posting on things you that "don't make sense" to you? You do what you like, he does what he likes. What make you so narcissistic that you think someone needs to justify their hobbies or interest to you? Who are you? Your opinion on the matter means nil. Now lets get back to the information please.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by PJSinger

This ^ (bolded) is true. Please stay on topic, folks.
.

PJ, understood, but I hope you will allow me this one indulgence to clear the air. Thanks.

Unbreakable,

I want to take this opportunity to apologize, first for dragging your thread off topic and second for ascribing motives and views to you that don't appear to be those you actually possess. Your posting style; language, tone and forcefulness, led me to respond to what you were saying as an embodiment of what I have always viewed as the worst aspects of Afrocentrism. My exposure has generally been on the socio-political end and not necessarily the historical/scientific end. While I vehemently disagree with many tenets and beliefs held by those on the socio-political end of Afrocentrism; I should not allow that view to taint or obscure the historical and scientific contributions of Afrocentic researchers who are essentially just working to further understanding in their field and yes, correct the inaccurate views of previous centuries. I get the impression now that you are among the latter and not the former.

More then that, I want to apologize for implying that you do not have a right to seek out or take pride in your ancestory or culture, whatever you discover or feel that to be. I know the facts concerning the near impossibility for African Americans to discover their ancestory beyond "slave", but I certainly do not understand the personal implications that has upon people. I do not ponder my personal ancestory or look to Greek and Roman civilization with any particular personal regard. However, I imagine it is not something I do precisely because I have always known and had access to that information. I know my ancestory going back hundreds of years, I know where my family name originated and its history. Even if I did not personally have that information and many do not, there is still the general umbrella of "western civilization" that I could look to. In the case of my Native American ancestory while I do not know particular names beyond a few generations in a family Bible, I know the general group they belonged to. I know where they lived, I know what their culture was, I know their general history and I can seek out others who share that past if I so choose. You do not deserve to be told that you shouldn't care about or be denied knowledge of things that I take for granted.

While I doubt we will always see eye-to-eye on every issue, I look forward to any other topics you want to bring to everyones attention for discussion. I think there is a lot that people can learn from what is an ever evolving field of study that you are very passionate about.

[The Unbreakable]

Thank You NJGoat!

[cachibatches]

And here I am Asante.

The ancients where 90% genetically identical to moderns except that they now have more sub-saharan DNA due to the slave trade. All geneticists- including Keita- who have looked at both mummies and moderns agree, and cite eurasian back-migrated DNA since the Neolithic.

VARIOUS DNA STUDIES PROVING EURASIAN ADMIXUTRE IN ANCIENT EGYPTIANS
Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt
A. Stevanovitch
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...7.2003.00057.x]
Mitochondrial genetic data from North Africa are documented by two groups of populations: one composed of populations of the Nile Valley, and the other by populations of the Maghreb. The Nile Valley has been shown to be a migration corridor with populations connected by gene flow URL="http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com
1999, and phylogeographical analysis of mitochondrial lineages of populations from the Maghreb suggests that modern humans appeared from the Near East following at least two migrations around 50 000 years and 10 000 years ago. A possible migration from Europe may also have occurred during the Neolithic period ([/SIZE][/font][url=http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00057.x/full#b14

[B]Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.- [/b]http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/ar...enetic-markers
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.

Near eastern neolithic genetic input in a small oasis of the Egyptian Western Desert
[SIZE=3]Table 2[/SIZE][SIZE=3] and Table S1) show that North African populations vary in the percentage of Neandertal inferred admixture, primarily depending on the amount of European or Near Eastern ancestry they present ([/SIZE][SIZE=3]Table 1[/SIZE][SIZE=3]). Populations like North Morocco and Egypt, with the highest European and Near Eastern component (~40%), have also the highest amount of Neandertal ancestry (~60–70%)....Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]DNA STUDY PROVING MODERN EGYPTIANS 90% GENETICALLY IDENTICAL TO ANCIENTS:[/SIZE]
PROOF Modern Egyptians descend from Ancient Egyptians -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz50_nx8UDg

STUDY SHOWING BODY LENGHTS ARE NOT TROPICAL, BUT INTERMEDIATE, AND PROBABLY SO DUE TO PHENOTYPICAL DEVELOPMENT

Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide
Michelle H. Raxter
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/vi...xter%202011%22
n Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to
higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body
breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and
Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-
Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length

STUDIES SHOWING THAT SUB SAHRAN AFRICA DNA- NOT EURASIAN- HAS INCREASED IN MODERN TIMES- SOME ALSO CONTAIN DATA ON EURASIAN DNA

Research on ancient DNA in the Near East
Mateusz Baca
http://www.scribd.com/doc/26068943/Baca-Molak-2008-DNA-Near-East
To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.


mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
C. Fox, 1997
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26·7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68·7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
Krings et al study, 1999:
Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. GraverMolecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations
mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?
Krings
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707631826
To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. At slowly evolving sites within HV1, northern-mtDNA diversity was highest in Egypt and lowest in the southern Sudan, and southern-mtDNA diversity was highest in the southern Sudan and lowest in Egypt, indicating that migrations had occurred bidirectionally along the Nile River Valley. Egypt and Nubia have low and similar amounts of divergence for both mtDNA types, which is consistent with historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. Spatial autocorrelation analysis demonstrates a smooth gradient of decreasing genetic similarity of mtDNA types as geographic distance between sampling localities increases, strongly suggesting gene flow along the Nile, with no evident barriers. We conclude that these migrations probably occurred within the past few hundred to few thousand years and that the migration from north to south was either earlier or lesser in the extent of gene flow than the migration from south to north.

GENETIC STUDIES ON OTHER NORTH AFRICAN GROUPS RPOVING BACK MIGRATION

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa Arredi
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
"We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from the Middle East."...[SIZE=3] that most of the rest fell into haplogroup U6 (Salas et al. [/SIZE][SIZE=3]2002[/SIZE][SIZE=3]), which perhaps originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ~30 thousand years (KY) ago (KYA)[/SIZE]

Mitochondrial DNA transit between West Asia and North Africa inferred from U6 phylogeography
[SIZE=3]Nicole Maca-Meyer[/SIZE]
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/4/15
World-wide phylogeographic distribution of human complete mitochondrial DNA sequences suggested a West Asian origin for the autochthonous North African lineage U6. We report here a more detailed analysis of this lineage, unraveling successive expansions that affected not only Africa but neighboring regions such as the Near East, the Iberian Peninsula and the Canary Islands.

WHAT DR KEITA ACTUALLY SAYS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZssWb4MmGM

[The Unbreakable]

The 14 year old Neo Nazi Chachibatches was destroyed in his own thread with the same uncontextualized spammed BS over on Historum (must register to view this thread).

[Grandstander]

This reminds me of that scene near the end of "Blazing Saddles" where the bar room brawl in the western movie breaks through and spills out onto the set of the musical movie.