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Old 03-12-2019, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,180 posts, read 4,263,746 times
Reputation: 1316

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastwardBound View Post
I agree with you to a point. But, what is right? Is it right to ignore laws en masse? Is it right to allow illegals to be exploited and have to live in the shadows, working for cash? Is it right to continue to allow working class Americans' wages and standard of living to erode?

I'm sorry, but I see nothing 'right' about any of that.
First I'm let me explain why I made the statement. There was a time in this country that it was 'illegal' for the white person and the black person to assemble together. But they did so anyway, in secret, because it was the 'right' thing to do.

Is it right to deny a person their 'human rights' simply because they were not born in a particular country?

What human rights you may ask. Let's start with the one we all know so well ... the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? (Lady Liberty with her torch lit, is there for a reason, she is what ... we use to stand for, what happened to that?)

They are not coming here to do drugs or pass on drugs as that part has been established and it has also been established that those that breaking our laws in that fashion, are soon caught and thrown into the poky. We have a legal system for that and it works. Is it right to lock up all the ones that come here to work, because of those that come here for the other reasons? Why is it their 'human rights' do not apply to them?

In order to work, in order to ask for asylum, in order to ask for citizenship, the person must first, come here. There is not a one size fits all, where as, the situation in a person's home country grants them the 'wait time' for applying for those things from their home country. Reason being, in their home country they are 'at risk'. They come here for ... protection. Since they are at risk, they are going to make a run for it so as to cross the boarder and when they do that, how is it they are received? It is with malice they are received because they did something 'illegal'. So they get picked up and thrown into the poky?

For the woman escaping an abusive husband, tell me where is that the 'right' thing to do? For a family trying to get out of a gang situation, tell me where that is the right thing to do?
Quote:
Is it right to allow illegals to be exploited and have to live in the shadows, working for cash?
When circular migration was halted because of policies (not law) we created that situation. We did that, not them. They were doing what they have always done for centuries ... They like their home country, and they do not wish to give up their citizenship. But when economic times in their country forced them to look for work elsewhere, they came here, to work for the season(s) and then return home. Now we have created another situation for them, that they can not go home, because if they do, they may not be able to return here to 'work'. (farmers are finding it more difficult to get their goods to market, which will increase the cost of what is available)
Quote:
Is it right to continue to allow working class Americans' wages and standard of living to erode?
How does helping others impede the lives of working class Americans? Not to mention, there is no truth to your statement. If there was truth to it, then you would have back it with stats to prove your point. I've already asked you if you think that a person working in IT making a middle class wage is going to stop what they are doing and go pick fruit? Do you know what the fruit picker is doing ... he's a dad and he working so as to put his child through college. Why deny him, that, because he was born in another country? Where does that benefit the establishment? I ask it that way because that is the bottom line of the benefactor. I'm not being hurt, I have my job. Your not being hurt, you have your job. So who is it really that is being effected in this situation?

A little bit of history for you. This argument use to be argued the other way around, in the way of the American's right to expat. I'll give you Justice James Iredell quote from (1868) that era:

"That a man ought not to be a slave; that he should not be confined against his will to a particular spot because he happened to draw his first breath upon it; that he should not be compelled to continue in a society to which he is accidentally attached, when he can better his situation elsewhere, much less when he must starve in one country, and may live comfortably in another, are positions which I hold as strongly as any man, and they are such as most nations in the world appear clearly to recognize."

My last point and I will leave you with this. In all my time here on c-d spent in the civil war threads and the confederate flag controversial threads I have managed to do quite of a bit of reading of that era and this, what we are doing today in regards to immigrants, is so similar to the arguments they had in that era of why they black man should remain a slave, it is really scary to think ... history does repeat itself and it also has a really off handed way of doing it.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:54 PM
 
9,619 posts, read 2,335,080 times
Reputation: 4400
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
whatever...I'm 72 and have lived in California all of my life except for a stint in Reno and there have never been a significant number of black migrant farm hands. Blacks and other minorities came here during the war to work in the shipyards
.

I was talking about farms on the east coast. Blacks came up from the South.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Metro Washington DC
12,832 posts, read 19,497,589 times
Reputation: 7466
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
You prefer illegals instead of fixing the problem so the workers can be legal?
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
29,775 posts, read 12,647,058 times
Reputation: 21113
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf747 View Post
You prefer illegals instead of fixing the problem so the workers can be legal?
I never suggested anything even close to what you are inferring
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:20 AM
 
12,325 posts, read 3,298,918 times
Reputation: 9874
The myth is not busted because it is fact.
White folks in the USA simply will not do hard, sweaty and low cost labor in the NUMBERS needed to keep the existing economy going.

I speak from quite a bit of experience...and as a "white guy" who HAS done a lot of construction and other outdoor labor.

If it WAS the case that "white people" would do this work, we'd have a real migration from the hills of KY and WV to Texas and Georgia and elsewhere where the folks could get work.

And, yes, the former poster has it correct that black workers were used in the fields of NJ and many other such places - cities such as Bridgeton have large Black populations to this day as a result. They were also brought to do all the hard work in Resorts such as Atlantic City, where - again - whites didn't want to do it.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
21,008 posts, read 21,178,499 times
Reputation: 21026
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
The myth is not busted because it is fact.
White folks in the USA simply will not do hard, sweaty and low cost labor in the NUMBERS needed to keep the existing economy going.

I speak from quite a bit of experience...and as a "white guy" who HAS done a lot of construction and other outdoor labor.

If it WAS the case that "white people" would do this work, we'd have a real migration from the hills of KY and WV to Texas and Georgia and elsewhere where the folks could get work.

And, yes, the former poster has it correct that black workers were used in the fields of NJ and many other such places - cities such as Bridgeton have large Black populations to this day as a result. They were also brought to do all the hard work in Resorts such as Atlantic City, where - again - whites didn't want to do it.
But you did it. I did it. My parents did it. My kids did it. My grandkids are doing it. Hard, sweaty low wage labor.
Perhaps most "white people" aren't transient and cant live off low wage seasonal work. That why we have a vias system for legal migrant workers.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Metro Washington DC
12,832 posts, read 19,497,589 times
Reputation: 7466
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
I never suggested anything even close to what you are inferring
It seemed like it, but since you say you didn't, I believe you.
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Old 03-14-2019, 12:24 AM
 
12,355 posts, read 5,911,286 times
Reputation: 10338
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
The myth is not busted because it is fact.
White folks in the USA simply will not do hard, sweaty and low cost labor in the NUMBERS needed to keep the existing economy going.

I speak from quite a bit of experience...and as a "white guy" who HAS done a lot of construction and other outdoor labor.

If it WAS the case that "white people" would do this work, we'd have a real migration from the hills of KY and WV to Texas and Georgia and elsewhere where the folks could get work.

And, yes, the former poster has it correct that black workers were used in the fields of NJ and many other such places - cities such as Bridgeton have large Black populations to this day as a result. They were also brought to do all the hard work in Resorts such as Atlantic City, where - again - whites didn't want to do it.
Did it ever occur to you that farms are in rural areas and many unemployed Americans are in the cities and the suburbs? How do you expect these people to get to the farms? Many don't have reliable transportation---even if they did, a good portion of their salary would be eaten up by commuting costs (gas, vehicle maintenance). Besides, crop picking is seasonal work. Most people want year round employment.

Are you willing to volunteer your time and your vehicle taking unemployed Americans to the farms?

Besides, as it has been pointed out many, many times --- farmers have access to an agricultural visa program that has no caps on it. The farmers whining about how they have crops rotting in the fields are sleazy farmers who refuse to use the visa program and instead opt for cheap, exploitable, illegal labor. Honest farmers who use the visa program have no problems getting their crops picked.
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:54 AM
 
Location: San Diego
33,869 posts, read 31,173,801 times
Reputation: 18470
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
The myth is not busted because it is fact.
White folks in the USA simply will not do hard, sweaty and low cost labor in the NUMBERS needed to keep the existing economy going.

I speak from quite a bit of experience...and as a "white guy" who HAS done a lot of construction and other outdoor labor.

If it WAS the case that "white people" would do this work, we'd have a real migration from the hills of KY and WV to Texas and Georgia and elsewhere where the folks could get work.

And, yes, the former poster has it correct that black workers were used in the fields of NJ and many other such places - cities such as Bridgeton have large Black populations to this day as a result. They were also brought to do all the hard work in Resorts such as Atlantic City, where - again - whites didn't want to do it.
Labor jobs used to actually pay a wage you could raise a family on. You take any job on the planet and at some point people will cease to do it if you make the wage low enough. What we are seeing is people coming from places getting payed a few dollars a day and seeing jobs paying (to them) a lot of money.

Race has nothing to do with it.
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Old 03-14-2019, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,180 posts, read 4,263,746 times
Reputation: 1316
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD View Post
Are you willing to volunteer your time and your vehicle taking unemployed Americans to the farms
Trains ... they go every where. Meet the foreman at the station, they'll take you out to the farm. Live at the bunkhouse for the season at the end of the season, get back on the train and go home.

PS: my first thought was, there's a company some one could create and develop, transporting people to farms, but then one would have to have the people first, willing to actually take the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Labor jobs used to actually pay a wage you could raise a family on. You take any job on the planet and at some point people will cease to do it if you make the wage low enough. What we are seeing is people coming from places getting payed a few dollars a day and seeing jobs paying (to them) a lot of money.

Race has nothing to do with it.
When has labor jobs ever paid a wage that a person can (comfortably) raise a family on?

The Economic Impacts of Immigrant Labor on U.S. Dairy Farms
(August 2015)
  • Dairy farm workers are paid an average wage of $11.54/hour, and with non-wage benefits included, an annual equivalent compensation of $34,443. Dairy farms that hire immigrant labor pay [sic] hire average wages than farms that do not hire immigrants.
Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job

"Solorio is one of a growing number of agricultural businessmen who say they face an urgent shortage of workers. The flow of labor began drying up when President Obama tightened the border. Now President Trump is promising to deport more people, raid more companies and build a wall on the southern border."


Consumer markets rise and fall with supply and demand. Just saying ...
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