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alot of the violence in the region is due to western influence... the troubles in Iraq? because when the borders were placed by the Brits they ignored cultural boundries and grouped three groups that all hated eachother in the same spot... in echange to make a boundry on a river... that worked out well
If Muslims turned the other cheek and practiced love, this wouldnt be a problem. Christians have hundreds of denominations and we all get along. You cant because you don't practice love and forgiveness; you're commanded not to in fact.
Your version of Islam is words not action, did you say peace? The only time you can use peace and Islam in one sentence is when they on opposite ends. Only the muslims think Islam is peaceful nobody else does and that is the problem. Islam was built on violence and continues to bear that mentality up to today hence jihad.
Islam is really a way of life to counteract the Jews and christianity. It is founded on economics and not a god - your meat can only be bought from another muslim your clothes are removed from western influence and the pilgrimage to Mecca is one way of maintaining an economy without oil.
I'm sorry to say this but Islam is probably the most unwelcome religion in the world today thanks to the extremists and suicide bombers. Look at how muslims react to negative acts against Islam - take e.g. the news paper cartoon clips in Denmark and the writings of Salmon Rushdie! Muslim reaction to critisism or humour does not portray peace at all. Muslims are so bent on revenge its cause for concern!
If you want to preach Islam and spread its message of peace you need to start with muslims and if they catch on then maybe others will to.
I am wondering if you know enough about Islam and the Koran to be able to speak as confidently as you do. I think anyone can react badly to some of the news that extremist Muslims have made in the past. I find it very difficult to believe that these extremists are true representations of the heart of Islam, just as fundamentalist Christians are not representative of Catholicism, etc. It is foolish to think that other equally infamous people who espouse other religions are not also guilty of unbelievably heinous acts of violence, or arrogance on the part of Jews claiming to be 'the chosen people'.
The core of what this thread should be about is to try and understand something you don't know. Is it so difficult to imagine that a person who follows the true faith of their religion is incapable of and does not preach or desire violence? From the little I have learned about Islam, and I will continue to try and learn more, they do not react well to having their land taken from them or their families murdered. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. There are some attitudes that I do not agree with, particularly pertaining to their perception of women as being somewhat of a lesser entity, needing to do more and accept more in some aspects than their men do. But Muslims do not force other people to accept their religion or live by their terms. They are instructed to accept other people who do not think like them, which is what anyone should expect.
What is most important is that different religions be able to exist in harmony with one another. Bad people in any form need to be dealt with according to the rules of man, not god. Wouldn't it be more productive to ask if a good practicing Muslim would protect a terrorist Muslim who they know to have committed murder because they believe that Allah will punish the terrorist in the afterlife? The Unibomber was turned in by his own brother and sister. Could a good Muslim do that?
Is it acceptable in our western culture to even consider having four wives, even if we were in a position to take care of them and their children? The answer is definitely 'no'. But for some reason their women don't seem to mind. Different is not necessarily bad. Anger and accusations are not going to help anyone learn more about something that scares us. Try not to forget that the people defending Islam on these boards do not have to put their hands in the fire like they are to help others understand them. They are offering a gift and we should not spit on their efforts just because we do not agree with them.
I am wondering if you know enough about Islam and the Koran to be able to speak as confidently as you do. I think anyone can react badly to some of the news that extremist Muslims have made in the past. I find it very difficult to believe that these extremists are true representations of the heart of Islam, just as fundamentalist Christians are not representative of Catholicism, etc. It is foolish to think that other equally infamous people who espouse other religions are not also guilty of unbelievably heinous acts of violence, or arrogance on the part of Jews claiming to be 'the chosen people'.
The core of what this thread should be about is to try and understand something you don't know. Is it so difficult to imagine that a person who follows the true faith of their religion is incapable of and does not preach or desire violence? From the little I have learned about Islam, and I will continue to try and learn more, they do not react well to having their land taken from them or their families murdered. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. There are some attitudes that I do not agree with, particularly pertaining to their perception of women as being somewhat of a lesser entity, needing to do more and accept more in some aspects than their men do. But Muslims do not force other people to accept their religion or live by their terms. They are instructed to accept other people who do not think like them, which is what anyone should expect.
What is most important is that different religions be able to exist in harmony with one another. Bad people in any form need to be dealt with according to the rules of man, not god. Wouldn't it be more productive to ask if a good practicing Muslim would protect a terrorist Muslim who they know to have committed murder because they believe that Allah will punish the terrorist in the afterlife? The Unibomber was turned in by his own brother and sister. Could a good Muslim do that?
Is it acceptable in our western culture to even consider having four wives, even if we were in a position to take care of them and their children? The answer is definitely 'no'. But for some reason their women don't seem to mind. Different is not necessarily bad. Anger and accusations are not going to help anyone learn more about something that scares us. Try not to forget that the people defending Islam on these boards do not have to put their hands in the fire like they are to help others understand them. They are offering a gift and we should not spit on their efforts just because we do not agree with them.
I have aproblem with some of the statements you made (I have bolded them).
One need only to look at Hamas and all that follow them (thousands) to know that your statement is not true. Hamas are as much religious as they are political.
Muslims DO force people to follow them. They kill their own children if the leave the faith. Do a Google search on MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF. He left Islam and now has a price on his head. Also consider honor killings when a woman wants to leave her religion or marry someone out of the faith.
If the Muslim faith is ever to be respected by other religions Muslims must speak out against their own and condemn the extremists in their own religion. Christianity had to do it with the Spanish Inquisition.
Spanish Inquisition:
It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy and to replace the medieval inquisition which was under papal control. The Inquisition, as an ecclesiastical tribunal, had jurisdiction only over baptized Christians. The Inquisition worked in large part to ensure the orthodoxy of recent converts.In the mid-16th century, coincident with the persecution of the Protestants, there began to appear from the pens of various European Protestant intellectuals, an image of the Inquisition that exaggerated its negative aspects for propaganda purposes. One of the first to write about this theme was the Englishman John Foxe (1516–1587), who dedicated an entire chapter of his book The Book of Martyrs to the Spanish Inquisition. Other sources of the Black Legend of the Inquisition were the Sanctae Inquisitionis Hispanicae Artes, authored under the pseudonym of Reginaldus Gonzalvus Montanus (possibly an allusion to the German astronomer Regiomontanus), that was probably written by two exiled Spanish Protestants, Casiodoro de Reina and Antonio del Corro. The book saw great success, and was translated into English, French, Dutch, German and Hungarian and contributed to cementing the negative image that the Inquisition had in Europe. The Dutch and English, political rivals of Spain, also built on the Black Legend. Other sources for the Black Legend of the Inquisition come from Italy. Ferdinand's efforts to export the Spanish Inquisition to Naples provoked many revolts, and even as late as 1547 and 1564 there were anti-Spanish uprisings when it was believed that the Inquisition would be established. In Sicily, where the Inquisition was established, there were also revolts against the activity of the Holy Office, in 1511 and 1516. Many Italian authors of the 16th century referred with horror to the actions of the Inquisition. Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The point is, people spoke out against it, fought against it and eventually won the right to practice their religion freely. This must also be done in the Muslim world.....beginning with their own families. People have to be able to leave a religion without fear of death, otherwise, the religion will not be considered a peaceful one and will be spoken against by others.
One need only to look at Hamas and all that follow them (thousands) to know that your statement is not true. Hamas are as much religious as they are political..
I am not sure if good Muslim followers embrace the agenda of Hamas. Hamas may qualify for an 'extremist' status in the world of Islam. I would be curious to hear how our Muslim participants on this forum who consider themselves righteous practioners of Islam view Hamas and their methods of representing Islam and Allah to the broader population of Middle Eastern culture as well as the east and west.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
Muslims DO force people to follow them. They kill their own children if the leave the faith. Do a Google search on MOSAB HASSAN YOUSEF. He left Islam and now has a price on his head. Also consider honor killings when a woman wants to leave her religion or marry someone out of the faith..
Who is doing the killing? Are we speaking again of a radical representation of Islam?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
If the Muslim faith is ever to be respected by other religions Muslims must speak out against their own and condemn the extremists in their own religion. Christianity had to do it with the Spanish Inquisition..
I agree with you that a good Muslim should not embrace the actions of radical fanatics. I did ask the question of Muslims if they could turn in people who are behaving contrary to their religion instead of allowing them to continue and justifying it by saying that Allah will punish them in the afterlife. This is an important issue for me too. I think my level of respect for anyone would dramatically decrease if they were unwilling to report murder or blatant destruction of property that they had direct information about, especially if it were prior to the event. That would be unconscionable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
Spanish Inquisition:
It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy and to replace the medieval inquisition which was under papal control. .
Actually the inquisition was intended to remove Jews who were falsely converting to Chrstianity to avoid being exiled from Spain. Their methods of torture and murder are legendary; emulated by a man who believed himself to be a righteous Christian reviving the first reich of the Holy Roman Empire, called the Third Reich. I play no favorites in the heinous activities of narrow-minded religious dogma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind
The point is, people spoke out against it, fought against it and eventually won the right to practice their religion freely. This must also be done in the Muslim world.....beginning with their own families. People have to be able to leave a religion without fear of death, otherwise, the religion will not be considered a peaceful one and will be spoken against by others.
Again, you have to consider who is pursuing those who leave. I agree fully that people of the same culture as the perpetrators of violence have the best knowledge and ability to end fanaticism. But remember, we still have the KKK practicing in the US, and they are protected under the First Amendment, so long as they do not break any laws.
And I have to wonder if anyone would have said anything if Martin Luther had not embarrassed the leaders of the Church and caused a Schism between Orthodox and Roman believers. I really wonder if the selling of indulgences, the syphillis spread throughout the Vatican, the Borgia drama, and the blatant misuse of power by the Church had not been cause to split the coffers of the Church that they would have tempered their excesses. In any case, I would really like to hear from a devout Muslim about their opinion of their radical practioners. I suspect that we will not get a response other than to say that the quran does not allow for their actions, killing is wrong for anything other than retaliation, and that Allah will be the final judge. I don't think it is in a Muslim's interest, especially a good Muslim, to judge anyone other than those who force their action.
I am not sure if good Muslim followers embrace the agenda of Hamas. Hamas may qualify for an 'extremist' status in the world of Islam. I would be curious to hear how our Muslim participants on this forum who consider themselves righteous practioners of Islam view Hamas and their methods of representing Islam and Allah to the broader population of Middle Eastern culture as well as the east and west.
Who is doing the killing? Are we speaking again of a radical representation of Islam?
I agree with you that a good Muslim should not embrace the actions of radical fanatics. I did ask the question of Muslims if they could turn in people who are behaving contrary to their religion instead of allowing them to continue and justifying it by saying that Allah will punish them in the afterlife. This is an important issue for me too. I think my level of respect for anyone would dramatically decrease if they were unwilling to report murder or blatant destruction of property that they had direct information about, especially if it were prior to the event. That would be unconscionable.
Actually the inquisition was intended to remove Jews who were falsely converting to Chrstianity to avoid being exiled from Spain. Their methods of torture and murder are legendary; emulated by a man who believed himself to be a righteous Christian reviving the first reich of the Holy Roman Empire, called the Third Reich. I play no favorites in the heinous activities of narrow-minded religious dogma.
Again, you have to consider who is pursuing those who leave. I agree fully that people of the same culture as the perpetrators of violence have the best knowledge and ability to end fanaticism. But remember, we still have the KKK practicing in the US, and they are protected under the First Amendment, so long as they do not break any laws.
And I have to wonder if anyone would have said anything if Martin Luther had not embarrassed the leaders of the Church and caused a Schism between Orthodox and Roman believers. I really wonder if the selling of indulgences, the syphillis spread throughout the Vatican, the Borgia drama, and the blatant misuse of power by the Church had not been cause to split the coffers of the Church that they would have tempered their excesses. In any case, I would really like to hear from a devout Muslim about their opinion of their radical practioners. I suspect that we will not get a response other than to say that the quran does not allow for their actions, killing is wrong for anything other than retaliation, and that Allah will be the final judge. I don't think it is in a Muslim's interest, especially a good Muslim, to judge anyone other than those who force their action.
Let's see if we get a response.
And Muslims and non Catholic Christians......not just Jews. It was extended beyond Spain.
Some of the "good" Muslims on this board also think that it is okay to beat your wife (lightly LOL) and circumcise girls and defend the practice so I don't take much stock in their opinions.
I am wondering if you know enough about Islam and the Koran to be able to speak as confidently as you do. I think anyone can react badly to some of the news that extremist Muslims have made in the past. I find it very difficult to believe that these extremists are true representations of the heart of Islam, just as fundamentalist Christians are not representative of Catholicism, etc. It is foolish to think that other equally infamous people who espouse other religions are not also guilty of unbelievably heinous acts of violence, or arrogance on the part of Jews claiming to be 'the chosen people'.
The core of what this thread should be about is to try and understand something you don't know. Is it so difficult to imagine that a person who follows the true faith of their religion is incapable of and does not preach or desire violence? From the little I have learned about Islam, and I will continue to try and learn more, they do not react well to having their land taken from them or their families murdered. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me. There are some attitudes that I do not agree with, particularly pertaining to their perception of women as being somewhat of a lesser entity, needing to do more and accept more in some aspects than their men do. But Muslims do not force other people to accept their religion or live by their terms. They are instructed to accept other people who do not think like them, which is what anyone should expect.
What is most important is that different religions be able to exist in harmony with one another. Bad people in any form need to be dealt with according to the rules of man, not god. Wouldn't it be more productive to ask if a good practicing Muslim would protect a terrorist Muslim who they know to have committed murder because they believe that Allah will punish the terrorist in the afterlife? The Unibomber was turned in by his own brother and sister. Could a good Muslim do that?
Is it acceptable in our western culture to even consider having four wives, even if we were in a position to take care of them and their children? The answer is definitely 'no'. But for some reason their women don't seem to mind. Different is not necessarily bad. Anger and accusations are not going to help anyone learn more about something that scares us. Try not to forget that the people defending Islam on these boards do not have to put their hands in the fire like they are to help others understand them. They are offering a gift and we should not spit on their efforts just because we do not agree with them.
I am wondering if you know enough about Islam and the Koran to be able to speak as confidently as you do. Oh yes I do, I live in a city with strong muslim influence, some of my best friends are muslim, I own and have read the Koran probably more than most muslims, I have been to jummah prayers more times than I can remember and I've been to several Islamic gatherings and discussions where you will not see another religious believer let alone an atheist.
I agree not everybody can be painted with the same brush but how do you explain the joy that is exhibited in mosques and muslim homes when innocent Americans or Jews are killed using brainwashed suicide bombers?
Islam does not stand firm for peace they just say they do or we would not be having this debate. Just a little word of warning muslims can be very charming when they are reeling in a potential follower, but their tolerence levels are very low when they have to deal with adversity.
There are some attitudes that I do not agree with, particularly pertaining to their perception of women as being somewhat of a lesser entity, needing to do more and accept more in some aspects than their men do. Most wives do more than their husbands its not a crime, women generally work harder than men on household duties the problem with muslims is women are treated as second class citizens in other words they are lesser human beings than men!
But Muslims do not force other people to accept their religion or live by their terms.Try kissing your wife or girlfriend on the beach in Dubai or any other muslim country, how long would a western woman last in a muslim country without her head covered.
They are instructed to accept other people who do not think like them, which is what anyone should expect. This is what they say not what they do.
What is most important is that different religions be able to exist in harmony with one another. Name tree countries where muslims live in harmony with other religious groups.
Wouldn't it be more productive to ask if a good practicing Muslim would protect a terrorist Muslim who they know to have committed murder because they believe that Allah will punish the terrorist in the afterlife? Yes, but will I get the truth?
Is it acceptable in our western culture to even consider having four wives, even if we were in a position to take care of them and their children? The answer is definitely 'no'. But for some reason their women don't seem to mind. This is absolutely NOT true, my business partner has two wives who have never spoken to each other for twelve years and my partner is living a life of torture he has now run away from both of them and moved in with a girlfriend, I have dozens of sad stories on this.
Try not to forget that the people defending Islam on these boards do not have to put their hands in the fire like they are to help others understand them. I suppose when you believe in something standing up for it is considered noble but if you feel that its too much to help others understand your belief then don't be surprized to find people uncooperative or difficult.
They are offering a gift and we should not spit on their efforts just because we do not agree with them. Not everybody sees this as a gift as much as you don't see a Jahovah's witness at your door as a gift this is propagating a religious belief that is based on one man's word.
Last edited by Goodatheist; 01-24-2009 at 07:08 PM..
And Muslims and non Catholic Christians......not just Jews. It was extended beyond Spain.
Some of the "good" Muslims on this board also think that it is okay to beat your wife (lightly LOL) and circumcise girls and defend the practice so I don't take much stock in their opinions.
Baby boys are circumcised all over the United States. I don't approve of the general attitude toward women in Islam, as far as I have been able to learn so far. But I have not heard stories of women who cannot escape their religion. I have heard of a recent Mormon group that did treat its women as slaves, even underaged girls. One woman made an escape that will probably someday be a Hollywood movie.
None of this precludes Muslims from being as good a people as any on earth. Be thankful that you are free to make your own choices. You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion. I choose not to shut them out because there may be many redeeming qualities that we can find common ground on and eventually grow beyond our current limitations.
Our example, such as it is, of equality for women may hopefully encourage Muslim women to stand up and say that they want more out of their lives, within their current religion, and without having to give it up.
I am wondering if you know enough about Islam and the Koran to be able to speak as confidently as you do. Oh yes I do, I live in a city with strong muslim influence, some of my best friends are muslim, I own and have read the Koran probably more than most muslims, I have been to jummah prayers more times than I can remember and I've been to several Islamic gatherings and discussions where you will not see another religious believer let alone an atheist. .
I would love to hear what your friends have to say about their religion. Do they cheer when Americans die from terrorism? I also give you respect for taking the time to learn about something you seem to be somewhat hostile toward. I am on an earlier path than you, but equally as willing to learn. I too have had Muslim friends, but they were not as devout as what I see here and in some periodicals. America, I think, has a way of doing that to people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodatheist
I agree not everybody can be painted with the same brush but how do you explain the joy that is exhibited in mosques and muslim homes when innocent Americans or Jews are killed using brainwashed suicide bombers?
.
I have not experienced what you describe here and I would certainly be very disappointed in anyone who cheers the death of innocent people, wherever they are. I refuse to lose hope for tolerance and cooperation. I do not disbelieve you, but I have no such experiences with any Muslim I have known. Marking them all as bad is simply ignorant. You will be hard pressed to find a perfect religious dogma in any event.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodatheist
Islam does not stand firm for peace they just say they do or we would not be having this debate. Just a little word of warning muslims can be very charming when they are reeling in a potential follower, but their tolerence levels are very low when they have to deal with adversity.
.
This debate is for learning about what Islam is. The Muslims I have known were very much the same as any other of my friends, except when it came to their religious rites. Do you think that your friends smile at your face and hope you die? That just doesn't strike me as possible. What happens in countries that are mainly Muslim, I could not venture a guess. It would be hypocritical, wouldn't it? Is that trait strictly a Muslim one?
I am far from a potential follower. My life's work is based on encouraging the evolution of all humanity away from every religious dogma; to embrace the best virtues of all religions (faith, in each other, here and now), morality (transcendent values of right and wrong), ethics (based on the rule of human law, not the laws of a man-made god figure), and begin to take responsibility for knowing how to live and interact with one another, here in this world where it really counts. I have always made this known to anyone I talk to, including devout Muslims who were willing to listen and question me as much as I did them. God/god and Santa Claus are great stories for people who are too afraid to believe in themselves and others around them. But I would not ask for people to lose their faith before they were ready because despair and anarchy are too easy to fall into, and most people are too lazy or ignorant to make an honest effort to know themselves, treat their own families with the respect they deserve, and to truly wake up. I am not holding my breath for this to happen in my lifetime, however. I do believe that this is the only path for the success of our species and I feel good about dedicating my life toward that goal. Progress has to start somewhere and oftentimes the work is tough and dirty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodatheist
But Muslims do not force other people to accept their religion or live by their terms.Try kissing your wife or girlfriend on the beach in Dubai or any other muslim country, how long would a western woman last in a muslim country without her head covered. .
I would not appreciate visitors to my country bringing whatever is acceptable in their country here either. Could you imagine a child spitting their gum on the sidewalk here and getting beaten for it by a tourist? People need to respect other cultures, even if they don't approve of them, especially as a guest in their country. I don't go to a steak house to eat fish. I wouldn't want the nation of Islam to rule me in any way. But I do think that if I can understand them then maybe I can find a way to live in peace with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodatheist
What is most important is that different religions be able to exist in harmony with one another. Name tree countries where muslims live in harmony with other religious groups. .
Detroit, Michigan, USA; as well as many other enclaves around the country. And I can't imagine that you don't think that there are Muslims in countries all over the world. They may not be part of their government, pushing Islamic agendas, but there are Muslims everywhere not plotting to overthrow the world. You have to be more informed than to believe your comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodatheist
Is it acceptable in our western culture to even consider having four wives, even if we were in a position to take care of them and their children? The answer is definitely 'no'. But for some reason their women don't seem to mind. This is absolutely NOT true, my business partner has two wives who have never spoken to each other for twelve years and my partner is living a life of torture he has now run away from both of them and moved in with a girlfriend, I have dozens of sad stories on this. .
Can I ask if this is legal wherever this is happening? It certainly doesn't seem like it is either working out for them, or acceptable to anyone involved in that situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodatheist
I suppose when you believe in something standing up for it is considered noble but if you feel that its too much to help others understand your belief then don't be surprized to find people uncooperative or difficult. They are offering a gift and we should not spit on their efforts just because we do not agree with them. Not everybody sees this as a gift as much as you don't see a Jahovah's witness at your door as a gift this is propagating a religious belief that is based on one man's word.
I may never find out if Muslims are a generally disingenuous people. I refuse to believe this is possible of any group. My issue isn't with people so much as it is Islam. If the Islamic faith extols behaviors that are counter to the success of the human culture that will one day rule the earth, or we will cease to exist, then it will become a goal of mine to use it as the prime example of moving beyond all the fruitless religions that have always served to divide people instead of bring them together. But I say to you and to anyone reading that regardless of what people need to believe in to be happy is fine, it is the fear, mistrust, and intolerance that I am striving to get beyond. Our minds are too powerful to continue to waste on perpetual division and hatred.
Baby boys are circumcised all over the United States. I don't approve of the general attitude toward women in Islam, as far as I have been able to learn so far. But I have not heard stories of women who cannot escape their religion. I have heard of a recent Mormon group that did treat its women as slaves, even underaged girls. One woman made an escape that will probably someday be a Hollywood movie.
The circumcision that baby boys receive do not prevent them from "feeling" anything. It actually enhances it. Females on the other hand are prevented from "feeling" anything because Muslim men are too selfish to allow them to feel any pleasure. It is sexual bondage.
None of this precludes Muslims from being as good a people as any on earth. Be thankful that you are free to make your own choices. You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion. I choose not to shut them out because there may be many redeeming qualities that we can find common ground on and eventually grow beyond our current limitations.
Our example, such as it is, of equality for women may hopefully encourage Muslim women to stand up and say that they want more out of their lives, within their current religion, and without having to give it up.
Yep, and those that do will surely be killed by their brothers, fathers and uncles.
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