U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-04-2009, 09:03 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,509 times
Reputation: 161

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
There was no offense taken. I just did not want my words taken out of context. Every individual is responsible for their own actions. Now, I will try to express an opinion and question without sticking my foot in my mouth...

America is considered by many to be a "Christian" nation, even though only roughly 30% of the population practices religion devoutly in their daily lives. On the flipside, what % of people in the middle-east practice Islam devoutly on a daily basis? I'm going to throw out a number. 90%. Am I close to being right?

When people see and hear about these atrocities committed at the frequency they do all around the world, how can one believe that there is not a strong connection between what is taught to those that follow Islam, and what their actions are solely as an individual?
ditchlights , what about the priests who molesting children ?
it's wrong to judge the entire religion by acts of individual ( even if they was priests or imams )
judge the religion from it's teaching and it's books

can i say for example that christianity is a religion of adultery because mass of christians commit it ?

you can hear these atrocities commited usually by muslims , becuase in muslims culture such acts brings the shame to the family
those who commit such crimes do it out of shamefull emotions and out of anger , not out of devoutness

in the contrary , such acts dosn't bring the shame in other cultures , so thiere is no anger or shamefull emotions regarding such cases
so that honour killing not commited frequenty in your culture


after all , both of us agree that honour killing is a crime , and never justified in islam by anyway
so that , while i confess that there is a problem , i also denying it to be teaching of islam
islam teach us to be modest , but never teached us to kill those who arn't modest
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,839 posts, read 7,899,954 times
Reputation: 12690
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
ditchlights , what about the priests who molesting children ?
it's wrong to judge the entire religion by acts of individual ( even if they was priests or imams )
judge the religion from it's teaching and it's books

can i say for example that christianity is a religion of adultery because mass of christians commit it ?

you can hear these atrocities commited usually by muslims , becuase in muslims culture such acts brings the shame to the family
those who commit such crimes do it out of shamefull emotions and out of anger , not out of devoutness

in the contrary , such acts dosn't bring the shame in other cultures , so thiere is no anger or shamefull emotions regarding such cases
so that honour killing not commited frequenty in your culture


after all , both of us agree that honour killing is a crime , and never justified in islam by anyway
so that , while i confess that there is a problem , i also denying it to be teaching of islam
islam teach us to be modest , but never teached us to kill those who arn't modest
Par. 1) See paragraph 2 of my post #5, as I already covered the priest kiddie sex thing. Are the radical imans only a small fraction of Islam? If so, why are they not shut down by those imans who practice "true" Islamic teachings? If the religion as a whole truly despises violence, it seems that something would be done about this issue.

Par. 2) A true devout Christian does not commit this act. If they do, they know that they have sinned and need to repent to God. Nobody is perfect. Where did you arrive at the quantity of "mass" in regards to the # of Christians who commit this act?

Par. 3) Which act exactly is it that brings shame to the family? Dressing Westernized, adultery (which is punishable by death I believe) or running over your daughter with the family vehicle? Or could it be that terrorist organizations feel shame after they strap a bomb to a woman, child, or retard, and send them into a crowded town square to up the body count. Every other day there is a new suicide bombing on the news. I am not entirely convinced by your argument.

Par. 4) I'm not sure which acts you are refferring to. If a father killed his son or daughter for ANY reason in a fit of rage, I guarantee you there would be lots of shame. And then he would have a long time to think about it in prison.

Par. 5) So what is it again that the hordes of radical imans preach at their mosques? If killing is not justified, people in the Muslim faith need to take a stand. These types of actions are FAR too widespread. We are not talking about a handful of isolated incidences here. Violence seems to be engrained into the culture. If America, and the rest of the free world, is to see Islam as you describe it to be, a serious makeover needs to occur, and it needs to happen from within.

Please address each issue I brought up, as I truly do enjoy this dialogue. I have no ill will for the Muslim population. I just want a better understanding of what makes them tick.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 11:41 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,460,431 times
Reputation: 3946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
for real?
Yes, for real. There are radicals in every religion.

Quote:
you mean when a lutheran gal sleeps around you can expect her dad to kill her?
Excuse me? Where the hell do you come up with that? Good grief, you have zero reading comprehension if that's what you got from my post.

Quote:
interesting. you must go to a different church than me.
I don't go to church. It's a waste of time and money, and they teach lies to their congregations.

Quote:
honestly friend
You're not my friend, cupcake, and I'm not yours, and we both know it.

Quote:
they do it different in bagdad. know much about the mideast?
Don't you effing start in on me about the mid-east. My fiance has done three combat tours there and is currently on his fourth. So you can stuff anything you have to say about that where the sun don't shine.

By the way, it's "Baghdad". Know much about the mid-east?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 02:22 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,509 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
Par. 1) See paragraph 2 of my post #5, as I already covered the priest kiddie sex thing. Are the radical imans only a small fraction of Islam? If so, why are they not shut down by those imans who practice "true" Islamic teachings? If the religion as a whole truly despises violence, it seems that something would be done about this issue.
well , i'm interrested to know your vision rather than debating , let us try to be objective and constructive
tell me your suggestions about what those imams who practice the true religion should to do to shut down the samall fraction of those radical ?

and tell me which issue are you talking about ? are you talking about honour killing ? because i don't know what the radicals said about it


Quote:
Par. 2) A true devout Christian does not commit this act. If they do, they know that they have sinned and need to repent to God. Nobody is perfect. Where did you arrive at the quantity of "mass" in regards to the # of Christians who commit this act?
excellent , this is my point . the same in islam , a true devout muslim dosn't commit honour kiling either

Quote:
Par. 3) Which act exactly is it that brings shame to the family? Dressing Westernized, adultery (which is punishable by death I believe) or running over your daughter with the family vehicle?
it depends on the individuals
by the way , adultery not punished by death in islam

Quote:
Par. 4) I'm not sure which acts you are refferring to. If a father killed his son or daughter for ANY reason in a fit of rage, I guarantee you there would be lots of shame. And then he would have a long time to think about it in prison.
i agree with you

Quote:
Par. 5) So what is it again that the hordes of radical imans preach at their mosques? If killing is not justified, people in the Muslim faith need to take a stand. These types of actions are FAR too widespread. We are not talking about a handful of isolated incidences here. Violence seems to be engrained into the culture. If America, and the rest of the free world, is to see Islam as you describe it to be, a serious makeover needs to occur, and it needs to happen from within.


breifly , they take a stand


Quote:
Please address each issue I brought up, as I truly do enjoy this dialogue. I have no ill will for the Muslim population. I just want a better understanding of what makes them tick.
i do enjoy this dialogue either
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,262,299 times
Reputation: 2056
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
Par. 1) See paragraph 2 of my post #5, as I already covered the priest kiddie sex thing. Are the radical imans only a small fraction of Islam? If so, why are they not shut down by those imans who practice "true" Islamic teachings? If the religion as a whole truly despises violence, it seems that something would be done about this issue.

<snipped for brevity, but good questions>

If America, and the rest of the free world, is to see Islam as you describe it to be, a serious makeover needs to occur, and it needs to happen from within.

Ya know, for what it's worth, I've had a theory about this. Islam came around about 600 years after Christianity. When Christianity first started, it was a religion of peace. Then something happened. It became organized.

With organization came power and we all know what happens when power takes hold. The Christian Church (as an organized body - both Catholic and Protestant) became a brutal entity with the extremists having no problem with butchering those they did not agree with. The killings happened for so many reason...some theological, some political, some racial...but all done in the name of god. Of course during the whole time, the Church insisted that the world convert. Wars of conquest were waged and Nation subjugated all the name of Christ. All the while, there were many clergy and lay people who were devout followers who did not agree with what the Church was doing. But, they did nothing to stop it. How were they to stand against the might of a Church that had its own de facto armies? Eventually came the Reformation...the first step in stopping the organized abuses. It still took several centuries for the Church to stop its organized attrocities. Now they are mainly a nuisance and irritant.

Islam, from what I have read, was a very peaceful and tolerant faith back in its early days. Then...well a very similar story. They went through their own persecutions during the Crusades just as the Christians did via the Romans. They have fought battles and experienced persecution among themselves, Sunni against Shia, just as the Catholics and Protestants did during the Reformation. Certain elements of those in Islamic power circles are bent upon converting the world and placing it under Islamic domination...just as the Church did. They (powerful leaders) have no problem enlisting the religious fanatics (and those with certain political agendas) to carry out their dirty work for them...convincing them that they are doing it for the glory of Allah. The Church did the same thing itself, using common religious nuts and Christian political agendists to carry on their religious wars. All the while, the rank and file follower and even clergy of Islam just live out their lives, but feel powerless to do anything about it.

Now, let's go back to the 600 year head start Christianity had on Islam. Remember, I am always speaking about organized religion...not individuals. Right now, that would place Islam where Christianity was in the 1400s. It seems that Islam is due its own Reformation in about 100 years.

This is my theory...then again, I could be totally full of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,839 posts, read 7,899,954 times
Reputation: 12690
Fullback, you are not far off in your reasoning. I do not think you are full of it. Religious wars have existed for a long time. We will see what will happen shortly. I'm just looking for a short term logical explanation, if one really exists.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2009, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Southern Willamette Valley, Oregon
6,839 posts, read 7,899,954 times
Reputation: 12690
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
well , i'm interrested to know your vision rather than debating , let us try to be objective and constructive
tell me your suggestions about what those imams who practice the true religion should to do to shut down the samall fraction of those radical ?

and tell me which issue are you talking about ? are you talking about honour killing ? because i don't know what the radicals said about it



excellent , this is my point . the same in islam , a true devout muslim dosn't commit honour kiling either


it depends on the individuals
by the way , adultery not punished by death in islam


i agree with you

[/b]

breifly , they take a stand




i do enjoy this dialogue either
Sorry it took so long to return. I try to pretend that I have a life away from the computer.

I'm sure it does not work this way in the heirarchy of the Muslim faith, but true (non-radical) followers of Islam should petition to the powerful religious leaders to have the radicals banished or fully discredited. This is usually how the problem gets solved in other religions. This will not entirely fix the problem, but it should make it harder on them as their funding and level of follower's should decline in numbers.

I use the word "should" loosely, as I know it is not rooted in reality. The reality is that it is not a "small fraction" of radicals. Sympathizers of this radical form of thought are large in numbers as well, and this is why nothing will ever change. More importantly, I don't believe that it really bothers peaceful Muslims that this violence occurs on a regular basis. This is either out of complacency or basic ignorance.

I could go round and round with you on the topic of violence in regards to the Islamic faith, but I really do not have that kind of time in my life. Are you telling me that under strict Sharia law, honor killings are not justified, nor is adultery punishable by death? I have heard different.

I do not know what is said in a mosque where a radical cleric preaches. What I do know is what I see on the news. The Taliban seems to be a pretty powerful foe. To be powerful, you have to be supported and financially backed by multiple wealthy sources. The problem is that there is no separation of church and state in Arab nations. When the religious radicals are IN the government, there is no way to fix the ills of a religion or nation.

You say they "briefly take a stand". What does that mean? The bottom line is that they are afraid that they will be shunned by their own or punished if they speak up or demand change.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2009, 03:02 PM
 
40,086 posts, read 26,750,404 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
I use the word "should" loosely, as I know it is not rooted in reality. The reality is that it is not a "small fraction" of radicals. Sympathizers of this radical form of thought are large in numbers as well, and this is why nothing will ever change. More importantly, I don't believe that it really bothers peaceful Muslims that this violence occurs on a regular basis. This is either out of complacency or basic ignorance.
No . . . it is out of complicity. Every Muslim benefits from the acts of Jihad in Islam. It is not necessary to participate. They are credited with the efforts of others. There has to be at least one act of jihad each year from which ALL Muslims benefit under Islam. As long as Israel exists . . . they are under jihad of war (not just personal jihad). They are also under compulsion (Allah requires it) to deceive any infidels if it will help to advance jihad.
Quote:
I could go round and round with you on the topic of violence in regards to the Islamic faith, but I really do not have that kind of time in my life. Are you telling me that under strict Sharia law, honor killings are not justified, nor is adultery punishable by death? I have heard different.
You do not need to debate . . . it is a violent and barbaric faith that believes in FORCE to compel belief in Allah or be dead. People of the Book are allowed to be under Allah by paying the jizzah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2009, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,262,299 times
Reputation: 2056
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
People of the Book are allowed to be under Allah by paying the jizzah.

What's jizzah?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2009, 04:48 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,509 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
Sorry it took so long to return. I try to pretend that I have a life away from the computer.
that's good for you


Quote:
I'm sure it does not work this way in the heirarchy of the Muslim faith, but true (non-radical) followers of Islam should petition to the powerful religious leaders to have the radicals banished or fully discredited. This is usually how the problem gets solved in other religions. This will not entirely fix the problem, but it should make it harder on them as their funding and level of follower's should decline in numbers.
excuse me , let me suppose that i'm egyption muslim , should we for example attack taliban because they in a war with america and it was happened that they are muslims as us ?

i realy can't understand how you condemn the entire muslims in the world because of some terrorism happened for political reasons by group or two of muslims in some place in the world ?



Quote:
I use the word "should" loosely, as I know it is not rooted in reality. The reality is that it is not a "small fraction" of radicals. Sympathizers of this radical form of thought are large in numbers as well, and this is why nothing will ever change. More importantly, I don't believe that it really bothers peaceful Muslims that this violence occurs on a regular basis. This is either out of complacency or basic ignorance.
well , you think that radical of islam are in large numbers , while i think that not exceed 5% of muslims in the world
so that may be i need to know your defination for " radical muslim " please

Quote:
I could go round and round with you on the topic of violence in regards to the Islamic faith, but I really do not have that kind of time in my life. Are you telling me that under strict Sharia law, honor killings are not justified, nor is adultery punishable by death? I have heard different.
well . i'm glad to inform you something different , you can check the truth by yourself



Quote:
You say they "briefly take a stand". What does that mean? The bottom line is that they are afraid that they will be shunned by their own or punished if they speak up or demand change.
if they said that they kill people in the name of God , the true muslims will condemen them and raise objections about thier understanding and their allegations and thier actions
what other things you suggesting for relegious to do ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top