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Originally Posted by theflipflop We believe only ours contain the truth (luckily our books give you excellent and easy pathways to fully connect with G-d and heaven),
I bolded the word YOU above. Defined how? the Jew, Me, any non-believer?
Luckily your books give WHO excellent and easy pathways...?
100% of people on earth (assuming they are not evil wicked people). It does not matter what religion you are, or even if you have a religion. Athiests are good too. Just live a life of good acts, try to follow the 7 Noahide laws, and it matters not what you "believe" or "feel in your heart." All people have potential to get to Olam Haba, and a certain belief vs another belief is not required for you to get there.
I don't think he existed. But the collective voice here at C/D seems to have over-ruled me.
But based on the texts that seem to talk about him, most Chrstians seem to think he was a Jew. And if he was a Jew, then he had to follow all 613. I never heard Jesus had any kids, so one mitzvah right off the bat I can think of that he violated was the commandment to "be fruitful and multiply."
But I must admit I don't know enough about that guy to know what Chrstians expected from him. Do Chrstians say he was sinless? That would be a big "wrong" if they say that. Or just that the nails in his hands and feet "atoned' for the world's sins then and for all time to come... (btw, forbidding human sacrifice is another of the 613 commandments, so if that indeed was G-d's plan for Jesus, then G-d Himself violated one of his 613. I struggle with a religion that assigns sin to G-d Himself)
mystifies me... but that's a good thing. The Jew has no connection to Jesus, nor should we. If he lived, he was just another in a long line of Jews of the time period who were not Torah Observant.
I don't think he existed. But the collective voice here at C/D seems to have over-ruled me.
But based on the texts that seem to talk about him, most Chrstians seem to think he was a Jew. And if he was a Jew, then he had to follow all 613. .
The enumeration of the 613 is attributed by the Talmud to R' Simlai, who lived in the 3rd century of the common era. So the famous dead Jew (who certainly lived, too hard to create someone out of whole cloth so quickly, and the early gospels are fairly early - and was certainly a Jew) certainly did not know them as the 613. For those of us with a view of the evolution of halacha that is rooted in secular textual scholarship, its not at all clear that all those mitzvot were considered halachah in 25 CE -which is well before the writing down of the Mishnah - what we know of halacha at that time is based on a variety of problematic sources, the christian scriptures, the dead sea scrolls, and Josephus, mainly (and if you think the mishnah, and a fortiori the gemorah, are good sources for what rabbis of the generation of hillel and shammai believed, you need to read R' Jacob Neusner)
And of course he may well have been a marginally practicing Jew, which was probably not at all uncommon at the time.
OTOH not having kids may have been due to physical disability, or some other issue. Or he may have had kids, that are not recorded in christian scriptures.
mystifies me... but that's a good thing. The Jew has no connection to Jesus, nor should we. If he lived, he was just another in a long line of Jews of the time period who were not Torah Observant.
sheesh - chabad wouldnt say we should have no connection to him - ahavat israel and all that, eh? Every Jewish soul has value. And every Jew performs SOME mitzvot, and each mitzvah has value.
Heck, one could make the argument that those mitzvot which WERE performed by Jesus are part of the grand mass of mitzvot leading to the TRUE messiahship of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. I wouldnt make that argument, but one could.
sheesh - chabad wouldnt say we should have no connection to him - ahavat israel and all that, eh? Every Jewish soul has value. And every Jew performs SOME mitzvot, and each mitzvah has value.
Thank You. You seem to have a true spirit of brotherhood and I commend you for that.
I have lost respect for the flopper.
I've tried to ask sincere & genuine questions, only to be mocked.
He enjoys making snide remarks about Christians failing to convert Jews, when I have pointed out repeatedly the failure of the Jews to accept Christ was prophesied. Obviously no Jew would believe those prophesies were concerning Jesus, but as Christains it certainly is no big deal or of any surprise that Jews are not easily persuaded.
I dont accept that - he is giving his opinions, based on his knowledge and experience, and I am giving mine. We can all learn from each other.
believe me, I know trolling when I see it.
and really, Im quibbling on "no connection" Flip means, I think, no connection to Jesus as a spiritual figure. Lots and lots of christians seem to think Jews MUST have some connection to him as such - as the messiah but not G-d, as a great rabbi (which I think is historically very unlikely) or somesuch. While there are a FEW Jews who see Jesus as spiritually important - notably Franz Rosenzweig, who saw Jesus as "apostle to the gentiles" as it were, most Jewish thinkers do not follow FR on that, and their position is certainly as legitimate as FR's is. The insistence that we must have such a connection is annoying, indeed.
I would add that I see Jesus as an historically important figure, and so of importance to Jews as Muhammed or Augustus Ceaser or Napoleon are.
And Im sure Flip will acknowledge a connection to marginal Jews in general (whether or not the historical Jesus was completely unobservant or not) - my quibble is mainly to remind him to precision in language.
Last edited by brooklynborndad; 03-27-2012 at 02:38 PM..
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