Activists want a new name for Lake Calhoun claim racism (Wells: move, racist)

[AmorphicDN]

Originally Posted by Lodestar

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I haven't seen you speaking with respect to people who disagree with you. You've used quite a bit of condescension and derogatory verbiage.

That's my typical experience in speaking with online liberals who claim to care about giving offense.

Examples?

I am in disagreement with several here who I don't believe I have disrespected in the slightest. Including the poster to whom I was addressing what you just quoted above. Just the opposite. Further, I haven't indicated any political / ideological allegiance whatsoever. Because? I don't have any.

But please quote what you take as disrespect from me and I'll consider. I'm like that.

[northsub]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

I don't think the signers weren't 'liberal', I know they were people who weren't particularly knowledgeable and would have signed just about anything. If you think this is some indicator of liberal thought, we're done because I think that position is so lunatic that there's no rational debate to be had and any words spent on the matter would be wasted. The site plays very fast and loose with truth and interpretation and is fundamentally propaganda. If they take you along for the ride that's your business.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Do you think the signers were liberal or not? Or do you "know" the signers were liberal? Or do you "know" the signers were not liberal? Honestly, I can't even tell what your position is.

I also still can't tell what about the article headline you thought was misleading. Repeating that you think it is misleading isn't going to convince me. Making a logical argument might. That would likely necessitate pointing out some specific examples.

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by northsub

I also still can't tell what about the article headline you thought was misleading. Repeating that you think it is misleading isn't going to convince me. Making a logical argument might. That would likely necessitate pointing out some specific examples.

I'm not convinced making logical arguments will help in this situation. I will explain why I think this first, then go ahead and make some logical criticisms once that groundwork has been laid that might make logical criticisms carry some weight.

From my perspective, there are only two possibilities here: you are participating in sophistry by lending this article credence, that you're forwarding dishonest arguments that you know are bunk. Or, two- the option I choose to believe- that you are being genuine and honest in thinking this video is truthful, accurate or cogent. In this best case scenario, you accept this belief because you are predisposed to believe ill of liberals. It is not logical inference that you accept this case, it is logical leaps aided by your ideological preferences.

Here are the logical flaws:

1) Quite obviously, the technique used in the video is called push polling. I'm going to assume you know what that is and also know that it's a technique widely known to NOT produce accurate information about people's beliefs and indeed when it is used it is considered to invalidate polls.

2) Yes, I am going to say that the responders are not known to be liberals. We don't know anything about the responders. You seem to think it is fair and appropriate to assume that they are liberal, which again leads me to say no listing of reasons or argument is going to help in this situation.

3) If they are not liberal, then why would they sign the petition? Many people will go along to get along when face-to-face with someone. Many people will sign a petition rather than confront or even say "no" to the petitioner. Most people don't stand up for their real beliefs if it means a confrontation. We don't know what's going on with the petition signers, who they are, what beliefs they hold, etc. Many of them could be clueless, apolitical, weak-willed sheep who are put on the spot.

4) Even if some were 'liberal'...so what? There are kooks all across the political spectrum. Do you feel all conservatives are represented by the Westboro Baptist Church? If not, why are you so ready to accept this video/blog as representative of liberal thought? The answer is simple: because you are predisposed to.

5) Given the overall willingness to play fast and loose with facts and inferences to further the "liberuls are bad" theme of the video, any rational viewer will assume that the editing is less than reliable.

At the end of the day, the article and video have nothing to say about the topic of this thread. It is in no way germane. It is cheap partisan slander that draws a lot of false inferences. The inferences only seem logical if you are predisposed to invalidate the perspectives and beliefs of someone you disagree with. If that is the case, I reiterate that listing a bunch of reasons why this obvious and unsophisticated act of sophistry is a waste of my time. And if that is the case I don't accept the pretense that you would be swayed by reason, and I offer reasons only from giving the benefit of the doubt.

You have the intellectual tools to see how the video/blog manipulate the truth, people will only accept its inferences if it echoes their political predispositions. As Mark Twain said "It is easier to fool a man than convince him he has been fooled." If you lend this video/blog any credence you've been fooled...by crude and obvious propaganda.

Even the smartest people can believe nonsense if they want to, and I believe this is the best case scenario here. But if you're willing to accept illogic as logic because it suits you, then further applications of logic are no cure. You have to choose to doubt even your ideological allies, and even the slightest doubt applied to the inferences drawn by this video/blog dispenses with entirely.

[Glenfield]

Ha! We knew this was coming. Here's a suggestion that the Minnesota state flag is inappropriate because it shows a white man working while the Indian is riding a horse. Something about that is apparently derogatory towards the Indian. Personally, I like horses.

As long as we're discussing flags, what about Minnesota's? | Star Tribune

[northsub]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

Here are the logical flaws:

1) Quite obviously, the technique used in the video is called push polling. I'm going to assume you know what that is and also know that it's a technique widely known to NOT produce accurate information about people's beliefs and indeed when it is used it is considered to invalidate polls.

Quite obviously, you might want to look up a definition of push polling again. This is certainly not push polling. Unless your point is that you think the people shooting the video had a real goal of convincing people that George Washington was racist.

The rest of what you talk about seems to be an argument that "even if the headline is true, it wouldn't mean the absolute strongest thing it could possibly mean". I'm not seeing how that shows the headline to be misleading.

I also don't really care if the people signing the petition are "liberal" or not. I merely asked to try and understand what part of the headline you thought was misleading. I also can't tell if the headline removed the word "liberal" if you would be okay with it.

Originally Posted by Thedosius

5) Given the overall willingness to play fast and loose with facts and inferences to further the "liberuls are bad" theme of the video, any rational viewer will assume that the editing is less than reliable.

At the end of the day, the article and video have nothing to say about the topic of this thread. It is in no way germane. It is cheap partisan slander that draws a lot of false inferences.

You are still basically stating the video is wrong without pointing out reasons. Honestly, I don't know what facts you are disputing.

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

Flat out nutty invective from beginning to end.

Demonize dissenting opinions, I get it. Doesn't change the fact that it's all true. I don't hold the racist history of the Democratic Party or the Progressive movement against the modern followers, any more than I hold the popular position of slavery against a leading politician of his time. If every historical event/figure is to be judged by the modern Progressive lens, there will be very little of our history left. That would be one thing if there was intellectual honesty or consistency was being applied, but there's none of that going on.

[Glenfield]

I'm not sure why we want to single out John C Calhoun as a racist. We have plenty of that in a home grown and more recent vintage. If we're going to purge all traces of racism we've got a big job in front of us and we don't have to look all the way to South Carolina to find it.

https://www.minnpost.com/politics-po...-s-minneapolis

[Mason3000]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

I don't think the signers weren't 'liberal', I know they were people who weren't particularly knowledgeable and would have signed just about anything. If you think this is some indicator of liberal thought, we're done because I think that position is so lunatic that there's no rational debate to be had and any words spent on the matter would be wasted. The site plays very fast and loose with truth and interpretation and is fundamentally propaganda. If they take you along for the ride that's your business.

Right, just as you would never think people flying the Confederate Flag or walking into Walmart with an AK-47 shouldered to exercise their 2nd amendment rights were conservatives .

It is what it is, these people pushing this PC nonsense are liberals. Own it. I do. It disturbs me, it should disturb you too. What I find encouraging is that many moderate liberals are starting to finally wake up and say "Ok, that's enough" & are trying to distance themselves from these PC kooks. The problem is, no one wants to be the person to stand up & challenge them because the debate is framed as righteous vs racist. If you don't agree with their take, then you're racist. It's the modern equivalent of someone screaming "witch" in old Salem, Mass.

[Thedosius]

Originally Posted by Mason3000

If you don't agree with their take, then you're racist.

You're right to disagree with those who demonize people with different viewpoints. Now combine that with a dab of self-awareness and your rants will actually get off the ground.

[AmorphicDN]

Originally Posted by Thedosius

You're right to disagree with those who demonize people with different viewpoints. Now combine that with a dab of self-awareness and your rants will actually get off the ground.

With a "dab of self awareness" he probably wouldn't rant.