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Old 02-15-2012, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 28,265,302 times
Reputation: 7824

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyctc7 View Post
Two reasons: July and August

Here is the latest gem from one of our $75,000/year wonders: Class sends handmade holiday cards to prisoner* - NY Daily News


If the teachers union dropped the pretense that they were "for the kids" I might respect them more. The purpose of a union is to represent the workers.

No, I don't hate teachers per se, but my memory of them is none too fond, at least as far as public NYC school is concerned.
Most teachers in this country do not start out at that pay and spend much of their career working under the poverty line or barely just above it and having to spend their own money on supplies.

Most teachers early one end up spending those "vacation months" working another job to make ends meet.

And it is a shame you don't have fond memories of your teachers, some of my best memories growing up come from some of the teachers I have been fortunate to have and know, without them I wouldn't of been able to learn some some of the things I have learned...but then again, plenty of Americans seem to see "learning" as the same thing as "going to the dentist" which there are plenty of ungrateful kids from ungrateful parents that are treating their teachers like babysitters rather than people that are there to help educate our youth.


Oh and the link you posted states that the teacher did not get permission for what she did, there was an investigation, and they are seeking termination for her actions...so it sounds like they are doing their job properly. Not everyone is a good teacher, and anyone who knows anything about NYC would tell you that $75K is about average for a middle class worker, heck I remember hearing a friend talk about a $50K job in NYC as something that "pays the bills" because of the city being so expensive. If she were in just about any other city, she would be lucky to be making above $35K and probably would still be fired for doing something like this....so I am not sure what this story has to do with hating teachers.
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Old 02-15-2012, 06:32 PM
 
995 posts, read 2,505,352 times
Reputation: 980
I would say 99% of the people here on the board think think teacher getting paid for 11 years to do nothing is wrong. How come the school board, local officials, state officials do not see this as well?
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Old 02-15-2012, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 28,265,302 times
Reputation: 7824
Quote:
Originally Posted by stantheman78 View Post
I would say 99% of the people here on the board think think teacher getting paid for 11 years to do nothing is wrong. How come the school board, local officials, state officials do not see this as well?
I "think think" you might need to go back to school. So who are these teachers getting paid to do nothing? And why are they getting paid to do nothing in the first place? And why is Fox News so focused on this apparent evil? Could painting a bad image for unions and especially teachers be good for Fox News, especially when it has been shown that their viewers are some of the least informed people?
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,389 posts, read 19,623,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Teachers unions and labor unions are very different things. Unions freeze wages apart from market rates. The demand for education is at an all time high, which is why teacher's wages would increase in a de-unionized environment. The demand for manufacturing is at an all time low, which is why unions increase wages.

Unions cause net economic loss so that people can sit back and not work hard enough to get by on their own. There was a time in this country when unions were needed, but we are long since past that.


Still waiting for the list of school districts or industries where the salaries went up after "de- unionization" and the spreadsheet comparing salaries of unionized teachers vs.non union teachers that would substantiate your theories.
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:15 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,389 posts, read 19,623,816 times
Reputation: 6215
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post

Note that NYC used to be HQ for many Fortune 500 companies. They left.......


They left? What do you mean "they left" ?

As far as I know NYC is still the home of more Fortune 500 companies than any other city .In fact,it is home to more than twice the number of Fortune 500 companies in Houston which is the city with the second highest number.
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:11 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,013,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
You know unions were created for a reason, which if you eliminate unions, that reason they were created in the first place will creep back into the US working field and it will be much harder to bring them back in to function....plus a very small percentage of Americans belong to unions.

So I am confused, why are people so willing to crap on teachers?
Unions WERE created for a reason. When unions first were created, companies had 'death clauses' in employment contracts that stated if an employee died on the job, the company could withhold any pay owed to the person, so that they didn't have to pay families of dead employees. THAT is the kind of abuse unions were created to avoid. They were never originally created to guarantee everyone a cushy lifestyle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post


Still waiting for the list of school districts or industries where the salaries went up after "de- unionization" and the spreadsheet comparing salaries of unionized teachers vs.non union teachers that would substantiate your theories.
How is it hard for you to understand that as long as a government-mandated schooling system is in place, any free market economic analysis (such as you are asking) is complete crap?

I am still waiting for you to explain why ANYONE deserves to be paid a wage that isn't set by a market.

Let me ask you this: if I started a school that paid teachers $170k/year if you could significantly improve the knowledge and skills of students in a year, but paid $30k/year if you did not, would you do it? Deunionizing would increase the pay of good teachers and decrease the pay of poor ones. Unionized workers rarely, if ever, outperform non-union counterparts who have quality incentive systems. Why on earth should we reward mediocre teachers, and punish good ones? After all, that is all unions really do today.
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Old 02-16-2012, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,898 posts, read 4,930,283 times
Reputation: 2166
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Unionized workers rarely, if ever, outperform non-union counterparts who have quality incentive systems.

Your wet dream of de-uniozation is clearly crashed by reality.

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

South Carolina 50th

North Carolina 49th

Georgia 48th

Texas 47th


Virginia 44th
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Old 02-16-2012, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 27,928,273 times
Reputation: 7249
Quote:
Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
Your wet dream of de-uniozation is clearly crashed by reality.

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

South Carolina 50th

North Carolina 49th

Georgia 48th

Texas 47th


Virginia 44th
What's great about your post:

#1: These states you mention are the same states MANY NY'ers are fleeing to for lower cost of living. Guess what? Anyone I know who is a Long Island ex-pat to these states acts like the teachers and the schools are the same or better than on Long Island (fully unionized, teachers among the highest compensated in the country). I mean you even mentioned the sacred Virginia that's supposed to be so great!

#2: How come teachers and their unions do not want to even have an evaluation partially based on student progress, yet the unions will put forth the bragging above that they are the reason for other states having higher scores? Also, perhaps the reason the states you cited have low scores has nothing to do with unions, but all to do with socioeconomics, parent involvement, etc., as is often used as a reason why "teachers should not be evaluated on student progress." You can't have it both ways, teachers' unions!
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:12 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,552,768 times
Reputation: 4168
Everyone keeps skating around the issue here and deflecting again and again. Yes corporations are bad...we got that..but since Unions are perceived as not as bad they should get a free pass or allowed to corrupt? Really? Let's stick to talking about Unions..and the abuses like the teacher getting paid to do nothing for 10 years.

The point: Does anyone believe that a teacher doing nothing getting paid for 10 years (and counting) $100K+ per year is ok? The answer is NO. Does anyone believe a system set up to create a teacher doing nothing getting paid for 10 years (and counting) $100K+ per year is ok? The answer is NO. Yet the Unions are working hard to ensure he stays there, every other abusive practice and exploitation stays as-is, and the system that created this remains unchanged by bribing (aka lobbying) our respresentatives, selling votes to politicians, and corrupting the process, essentially destroying the integrity of the education system. And that's just the teacher's union....you can say the same for just about every other public sector union.

THAT IS THE POINT HERE. And all the "what about the corporations" has nothing to do with this. We are not "envious" of him, we are not "anti-working person", what we are is identifying an egregious and entrenched problem, while the Union is fighting/bribing/deflecting to maintain it and every other egregious/abusive/expoitative practice.

Instead of saying "Yes this is a clearly a problem we need to address"..what is the response from Unions? "There is no problem"..."why do you hate working people"..."He deserves this"..."You should be concentrating on the horrible corporations/government/Mayor/anyone else they can deflect to"..."It's not our fault"...and excuse/lie after excuse/lie to keep the gravy train going at our expense. And that is why there is a backlash against Unions!!!!!
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,389 posts, read 19,623,816 times
Reputation: 6215
Quote:
Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
Your wet dream of de-uniozation is clearly crashed by reality.

Only 5 states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows:

South Carolina 50th

North Carolina 49th

Georgia 48th

Texas 47th


Virginia 44th
Thanks for this,likeminas.

Maybe hnsq can use this list of de unionized states to compare their salaries with unionized salaries and prove his point about how salaries will go up if unions are abolished.
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