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Not surprising since if you consistantly target the same group of people those are the numbers that you would get
Sigh. I'll try one more time. Please read slowly. People who are robbed & assaulted on the streets of NYC, describe their attackers as black or latino 91% of the time.
YBMS & YLMs are the ones consistently targeting victims!
Are you really having this much trouble, comprehending what I've typed? http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...04_02_2013.pdf
This year, blacks (mostly YBMs = 5% of the population) are suspects in 61% of NYC's violent crimes, and Hispanic (mostly YHMs = 7% of the population) in 29%. Yet, you wonder why police look at these groups.
Meanwhile, whites and asians are suspects in less than 10% of violent crimes, but are 13% of those stopped.
Bratton speaks about S&F: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.1540414
Sigh. I'll try one more time. Please read slowly. People who are robbed & assaulted on the streets of NYC, describe their attackers as black or latino 91% of the time.
YBMS & YLMs are the ones consistently targeting victims!
Are you really having this much trouble, comprehending what I've typed? http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...04_02_2013.pdf
This year, blacks (mostly YBMs = 5% of the population) are suspects in 61% of NYC's violent crimes, and Hispanic (mostly YHMs = 7% of the population) in 29%. Yet, you wonder why police look at these groups.
Meanwhile, whites and asians are suspects in less than 10% of violent crimes, but are 13% of those stopped.
Bratton speaks about S&F: Hamill: Returning NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton has plan for stop-and-frisk, 'knockout' trend - NY Daily News
Whatever the percentage of Blacks and Hispanics who are doing street crimes, that in no way justifies the police targetting innocent Blacks or Hispanics. Ever.
The cops need to go after Blacks and Hispanics who are actually committing crimes and victimizing people, INCLUDING other Blacks and Hispanics.
If cops harass innocent people you reduce cooperation between people in the neighborhood at the cops, and you make everyone in the city less safe if people don't feel comfortable turning trash into the cops when they commit crime.
And the city needs to do more in prevention.
Street thugs don't act alone. Its not like these hoodlums are married too or have princesses and queens for mothers. Further crack down on welfare and you put pressure on the trash that spawns these thugs, make it easier to evict criminals from private residences and NYCHA, and you go even further in making the city safer. And by the way, crimes like prostitution and drugs help lead to more crimes such as robberies (what kind of children will a crackhead raise). So if people with substance abuse programs want any help from the government rehab should be MANDATED. If hard working people can be drug tested on the job, welfare recipients can be screened for drugs (NYC has started this for some welfare programs).
I do recall when Stop and Frisk curtailed open drug dealing under Giuliani. Washington Square Park was a drug dealer's paraside. The NYPD sealed the park off, trapped everyone in there, and you could not leave until you passed a check point and got stopped and frisked.
I'm all for stopping and frisking people who are doing truly illegal things (loitering at 3am) in front of a building, fare evasion on the subway, etc. I am very much against stopping someone just because they look a certain way (race, dress, tattoos hair, etc.)
Whatever the percentage of Blacks and Hispanics who are doing street crimes, that in no way justifies the police targetting innocent Blacks or Hispanics. Ever. The cops need to go after Blacks and Hispanics who are actually committing crimes and victimizing people, INCLUDING other Blacks and Hispanics.
What makes you, or anyone else, think that the NYPD is targeting "innocent" blacks or hispanics?
If officers SQ&F, then move along, a group of thugs hanging outside a subway exit, eyeballing passersby, and none of the group has any weapons or drugs, so no arrest, is that a failure? Were they "innocent"?
Yet, they & the apologists will complain that they were "stopped for no reason".
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
I'm all for stopping and frisking people who are doing truly illegal things (loitering at 3am) in front of a building, fare evasion on the subway, etc. I am very much against stopping someone just because they look a certain way (race, dress, tattoos hair, etc.)
You can't be this naive.
How about loitering at 5 PM? On Friday, outside a bank or check-cashing store?
Fare evasion is an arrest, not a stop.
It's never "just because they look a certain way". There is always more. What you are doing is "reverse profiling", which is suggesting that people who look a certain way are only stopped for the way they look, and not for what they are up to, or for matching the description of someone who has just fled a crime scene.
You acknowledge the societal failures that produce violent street criminals, and desire changes that would reduce their number. Police actions can, and do, deter. It's not always who you catch. Sometimes, it's those you dissuade.
In NYC, young Impact officers flood high-crime areas at peak-crime periods, an over-allocation of police resources, over protests of those who call them an occupying force in the 'hoods.
In Chicago, police are divided up fairly equally among all neighborhoods, a balanced allocation of police resources, over protests of those who call for more police in the high-crime 'hoods.
Last edited by bigjake54; 12-07-2013 at 12:44 PM..
Stop and Frisk is not intended to really catch people but to deter them from carry drugs and guns on the street. If you illegally own a gun, why would you carry it with you if there was a chance of being frisked. Without the threat of being frisked, thugs will carry their own guns not intending to use them but out of fear others/rivals will have guns...creating a greater risk to communities. Drug use on the streets is also a dangerous issue that the threat of being frisked helps curb.
What does it matter if you target the same type of people and ignore others? All any of them have to do is get a courier that does not look like them and continue with business as usual
Look man to really be honest about it, them getting rid of stop & frisk along with operation clean hallways, is one of the WORST things they could do. I'm LATINO and I'm saying they should NOT get rid of it.
What makes you, or anyone else, think that the NYPD is targeting "innocent" blacks or hispanics?
If officers SQ&F, then move along, a group of thugs hanging outside a subway exit, eyeballing passersby, and none of the group has any weapons or drugs, so no arrest, is that a failure? Were they "innocent"?
Yet, they & the apologists will complain that they were "stopped for no reason".
You can't be this naive.
How about loitering at 5 PM? On Friday, outside a bank or check-cashing store?
Fare evasion is an arrest, not a stop.
It's never "just because they look a certain way". There is always more. What you are doing is "reverse profiling", which is suggesting that people who look a certain way are only stopped for the way they look, and not for what they are up to, or for matching the description of someone who has just fled a crime scene.
You acknowledge the societal failures that produce violent street criminals, and desire changes that would reduce their number. Police actions can, and do, deter. It's not always who you catch. Sometimes, it's those you dissuade.
In NYC, young Impact officers flood high-crime areas at peak-crime periods, an over-allocation of police resources, over protests of those who call them an occupying force in the 'hoods.
In Chicago, police are divided up fairly equally among all neighborhoods, a balanced allocation of police resources, over protests of those who call for more police in the high-crime 'hoods.
Dude, you can't be this naive.
Cops are not gods. They do good work for society, but to say there's no bad cops or no prejudiced cops ever is to say there's no bad people ever. And if there's no bad people ever, what do we need cops for?
There are bad people in all walks of life and in all fields. That's why employers are able to fire people, because not everyone does their job right.
Legally, those men are innocent unless they were caught doing a crime. Period.
And its weak policy to rely on policing alone to clean up an area.
Take the Bronx. No amount of policing is going to clean up the South Bronx as long as it is full of Section 8 and NYCHA residents, supportive housing for crackheads/drunks, etc. You'd need to cut their funding off at the root source and address those social issues (don't enable crackheads for starters) ALONG with POLICING an area adequately.
Stopping and frisking every group of guys who stands on the corner does nothing, and through the years I've seen cops routinely ignore guys like that. If the cops don't catch anything on them, there's absolutely nothing the cops can do to make them go home or leave the block (even if they have ill intent).
I lived in the North Bronx and complained about it. And I moved out. No amount of stop and frisk could make me live in that hell hole again. They'd need to get rid of all the elements I just mentioned, only that will not happen in the forseeable.
If you truly think Stop and Frisk alone is the answer I invite you to live in Brownsville (the most dangerous part of the city).
Look man to really be honest about it, them getting rid of stop & frisk along with operation clean hallways, is one of the WORST things they could do. I'm LATINO and I'm saying they should NOT get rid of it.
They are not getting rid of stop and frisk.
As I just noted, they are going to focus stop and frisk on guys committing behaviors like loitering, fare evasion,and other crimes. You cannot look at people walking down the street and determine that they are criminals and stop and frisk them. That does nothing to remove criminals of the street, partially because you have not caught anyone in the actual act of crime.
And the crime is disproportionately created by the fact NYC had such generous welfare policies that attracted the poor/crackheads/underclass.
You'd need governmental policy reform to address those issues, otherwise the policing is a big waste of taxpayer money . Yes, it really is.
So what if the thugs get arrested. They go to jail on taxpayer expense . They get out ,and get on a number of social services programs. Many can even claim they committed crimes due to mental illness and get SSI. So you've expanded government services big time, via the police force.
The city should have attacked the root problem, NYCA and the welfare complex. Along with that, then is when you use adequate policing to deter crime.
To be honest, if you see a bunch of young men on the street on 5pm in the Bronx they are not planning a robbery. They are dealing drugs, and the biggest drug is weed.
If the cops arrest these young, non working men for weed, they got to jail on taxpayer's expense and upon getting out if they didn't know how to game the system for money they certain will after speaking to the prison social workers and parole officers.
They'll find ways to get on SSI and other government programs. The city will erect more supportive housing for them (its been doing that for years) other low income "affordable housing" and concentrate it all in certain areas. Of course, all these non working people on drugs living close together leads to...........
So with that being said, if de Blasio does what he says and per court order restricts Stop and Frisk to actual crimes being committed, I'm perfectly fine with that.
Relying on the police to solve a crime AFTER it HAS BEEN committed is REACTIVE.
You need to change government policy to REDUCE crime. You want to PREVENT the crime from happening, because once its happened very often cops don't catch criminals.
Cops ... do good work for society, but to say there's no bad cops or no prejudiced cops ever is to say there's no bad people ever. And if there's no bad people ever, what do we need cops for?
False analogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Legally, those men are innocent unless they were caught doing a crime. Period.
Isn't the maxim 'presumed innocent until proven guilty'. They could be caught on video plotting to mug the next soft target foolish enough to walk out of the bank holding cash from a paycheck, but until a jury convicts, they are 'presumed innocent'. Just not innocent. And, with the jury pool in the Bronx, it's hard enough to convict people caught in the act or on video actually committing robberies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
its weak policy to rely on policing alone to clean up an area.
No one says policing is the only policy. There are schools and programs trying to teach people how to live properly, in the worst as well as the best areas. The only difference is the percentage of people who go bad, and what forms their misbehaviors take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Take the Bronx.
Nope!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
Stopping and frisking every group of guys who stands on the corner does nothing, and through the years I've seen cops routinely ignore guys like that. If the cops don't catch anything on them, there's absolutely nothing the cops can do to make them go home or leave the block (even if they have ill intent).
Police do not stop & frisk every group of guys, or do it every time the same group is standing around. The deterrent effect, is that they might do it, so don't be carrying weapons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
I lived in the North Bronx and complained about it.
About living there? Or the thugs hanging out there? Or the police stopping them? Or about the police not stopping them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
If you truly think Stop and Frisk alone is the answer I invite you to live in Brownsville (the most dangerous part of the city).
Again, who said S&F is the only answer?
BTW, murders in Brownsville dropped from 74 in 1993 to 15 last year, shooting victims from 350 to 87, and felonies by 2/3. So, something is working. http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...s/cs073pct.pdf
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