Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
DISCLAIMER: This thread is NOT intended to bait anyone into personal attacks. This thread is designed to serve as a useful outlet for us to finally channel our energy into a constructive discussion as to what role, if any, people who dislike Northern Virginia should have on this sub-forum. I'd ask that moderators please closely watch this thread as it progresses and step in as necessary. Thank you.
Well, I just got done reading d-fen's ill-fated thread chastising the region for its poor snow removal that devolved into pettiness about the very noticeable divide between the "Debbie Downers" vs. the "sunshine and puppies" cliques on this sub-forum, and I thought it would be most appropriate to start a new thread to provoke thought and discussion about this issue. There are apparently now about five of us in total who have legitimate reasons as to why we're unhappy here. One of these individuals is leaving this year for Kentucky. Another will likely be moving to New Mexico once her job assignment is complete. I will eventually be leaving once I can scrape enough nickels together to move and find an opening within my agency in a city more to my liking---hopefully Pittsburgh. Presumably the other two have already investigated relocation as well. The vast majority of everyone else on this sub-forum is relatively content or even euphoric about living here, and whenever one of us opens our mouths with any shred of criticism not only do people counter us, as they should to defend the turf they've grown to love, but the "fangs" also come out with a lot of nasty personal commentary that's really unnecessary and just detracts from an otherwise healthy debate. I hope we can start to work out our differences in this thread.
Here's my personal take on Northern Virginia. Is it for me? No. However, I've still proven myself as being very helpful and, save for a few dramatic moments when I was in one of my ultra-"downer" moods (which I'll blame on my depression) I feel as if I've been more of an asset to this forum than a detriment with my assessments of different areas, my photo tours (with more on the way in the Spring), etc. I just typed up a very lengthy reply in another thread to boost Reston, even though I personally have been turned off by the level of NIMBYism and classism here. My take on NoVA is no, it's not for me, but that doesn't mean I have the right to attempt to look down upon those who do feel comfortable here.
My main beef with this area has always been and will always be the poor long-range urban planning over the past 30 years to present that has put us in the dire infrastructural mess we're in today. We have tons of cul-de-sacs leading to narrow roads in subdivisions that lead to two-lane "feeder roads" that pour into a network of four-lane roads dominated by unsynchronized traffic lights and lined with unattractive low-density commercial sprawl that links those residential areas to Interstates. A rough grid-shaped network and/or more alternative roads and more mass transit would have been much more prudent to have developed years ago before the region swelled to be nearing three million people. Communities should have been planned around a central core with walkable residential areas around it (see Brambleton as a newer example or any "old world" example like Winchester or Old Town Alexandria). Instead we plop down seas of tract-housing and throw in a "fake" downtown (i.e. Dulles Town Center, Reston Town Center, etc.) thinking everything will be honky-dory as everyone drives there. People outside the Beltway are forced to drive nearly everywhere for nearly everything. If I wanted to get to Dulles Town Center to shop at H&M without driving, how could I do it? To get to Old Town Alexandria without my car I'd have to walk to the Reston Town Center transit station, take a bus to the West Falls Church Metrorail station, take the train to Rosslyn, transfer from the Orange Line to what I think is the Blue Line (Yellow Line?), and then walk down King Street---probably about 90 minutes each way vs. driving there in under 40 minutes. The "you can't get there from here" issue is one that WILL haunt NoVA in the long-term, as I've even heard credible rumors that a few major employers in McLean are considering a move to Maryland because of the congestion.
What do I get for expressing my viewpoints on the above issue? I get slammed. Why do I get slammed? My own personal belief is that if more and more people start second-guessing their decisions to move to NoVA before they come here based upon observations by people such as myself, then the market of prospective home-buyers will decrease, diminishing property values (which will put more people here who bought into the "bubble" upside-down and lead to higher tax rates to offset the lower values). I'm sorry, but I'm not sugar-coating the way I truly feel about certain issues just for the sake of boosting a housing market that is still too expensive for the middle-class. If people on this forum had been more forthcoming and telling about the issues I dislike about NoVA before I came here (poor infrastructure, poor long-range urban planning, unattainable housing values, heavy presence of people who need to "keep up with the Jones's", etc.), then I never would have come, and I would have probably never been at the point of nearly taking my own life last weekend out of severe depression.
Yes, there are those who will say people will still move here no matter what because there's jobs here, but guess what? I'm the poster child to stand on a pedestal and proclaim that it is a very foolish reason to move to an area just because of work---a fulfilling job will more than likely NOT overcome serious drawbacks in an area, and if your job happens to be rather unfulfilling, then you'll just end up extremely bitter and grasping at straws to find reasons to enjoy living in the region.
In closing please discuss below what "right", if any, those of us who don't think NoVA is "sunshine and puppies" have to post here. How can we phrase things differently to stop the personal attacks against us? There are a few people on this sub-forum I now strongly dislike for some snide and snarky remarks they've made against myself and other detractors from the region time after time. You don't see me thinking people are nuts for loving it here, so why think I'm a bad person because I don't see the benefits outweighing the drawbacks?
OK, I'll be among the first to respond, apparently.
1. I doubt anyone would disagree with you that Northern Virginia is not exactly the poster child for intelligent suburban planning. However, it is what it is. There are vast tracts of Fairfax County that have the stereotypical suburban pattern of houses on anything from a quarter to a full acre. The people that live in these houses and areas, presumably, made a conscious decision to have that lifestyle, with all the positive and negative aspects that it entails. I think some of the ire directed your way and at others is perhaps generated by the impression, correct or not, that some posters consider this lifestyle to be flawed, selfish, short-sighted, etc. I grew up in the Big Apple, and I consciously chose to live in a more country-like suburb like my part of Reston specifically because I like nature literally outside my front door. My decision about where to live might not be an ideal one for you to replicate at this stage in your life, but I wouldn't take it upon myself to criticize anyone who chooses to live in a more urban setting in Arlington or DC as having made an unwise decision. Unfortunately, that's how I think a lot of the critical comments about suburban life come off, i.e., a condescending "can't you see the folly of your choice" tone, whether that tone is intentional or not.
2. The sweeping generaliztions I often see in this forum are a disservice to rational dialogue. Someone who doesn't want a massive new development that will jam more people into an already crowded space, for example, might have very legitimate concerns that shouldn't be cavalierly dismissed as NIMBY-ism, geezer-ism, or whatever. Parallel to this is the frequent use of anecdotal examples to condemn an entire region, i.e., you once used the example of a single rude woman at your favorite chicken restaurant to label northern Virginia a bastion of rudeness.
3. With the way the economy is these days, it might be a little too simplistic to dismiss the economic reasons that may force people to relocate here or stay here in jobs they don't particularly like. As I understand it, you're in your 20's and single. You're in an ideal situation to uproot to greener pastures, especially if you have marketable and transferable job skills. People who have a large investments in their homes, or kids in good school that they like, or with jobs unique to the Washington area (e.g., they work for the Feds) probably don't have that flexibility.
4. Finally, just for the sake of full disclosure, I am not fanatically in love with northern Virginia. I also happen to dislike, among other things, the miserable summer weather, the self-importance of so many people, and the mindless consumerism and status consciousness evidenced by all those McMansions and Lexus/Audi/Merecdes on the road. My job with the Feds is what brought me here, and as I've said to my wife, I hope we don't end up staying here the rest of our lives just by sheer inertia. But for the time being, however long that is, it is home and I will make the best of it.
Thank you for bringing up an interesting topic for discussion.
Cliff notes. No time to read all this. Looks like someone is looking for attention though.
Nice. People wonder why the NoVA sub-forum is as hostile as it is? Some of you really need to look in the mirror. This thread was well-intentioned, and yet again another snarky comment.
OK, I'll be among the first to respond, apparently.
1. I doubt anyone would disagree with you that Northern Virginia is not exactly the poster child for intelligent suburban planning. However, it is what it is. There are vast tracts of Fairfax County that have the stereotypical suburban pattern of houses on anything from a quarter to a full acre. The people that live in these houses and areas, presumably, made a conscious decision to have that lifestyle, with all the positive and negative aspects that it entails. I think some of the ire directed your way and at others is perhaps generated by the impression, correct or not, that some posters consider this lifestyle to be flawed, selfish, short-sighted, etc. I grew up in the Big Apple, and I consciously chose to live in a more country-like suburb like my part of Reston specifically because I like nature literally outside my front door. My decision about where to live might not be an ideal one for you to replicate at this stage in your life, but I wouldn't take it upon myself to criticize anyone who chooses to live in a more urban setting in Arlington or DC as having made an unwise decision. Unfortunately, that's how I think a lot of the critical comments about suburban life come off, i.e., a condescending "can't you see the folly of your choice" tone, whether that tone is intentional or not.
2. The sweeping generaliztions I often see in this forum are a disservice to rational dialogue. Someone who doesn't want a massive new development that will jam more people into an already crowded space, for example, might have very legitimate concerns that shouldn't be cavalierly dismissed as NIMBY-ism, geezer-ism, or whatever. Parallel to this is the frequent use of anecdotal examples to condemn an entire region, i.e., you once used the example of a single rude woman at your favorite chicken restaurant to label northern Virginia a bastion of rudeness.
3. With the way the economy is these days, it might be a little too simplistic to dismiss the economic reasons that may force people to relocate here or stay here in jobs they don't particularly like. As I understand it, you're in your 20's and single. You're in an ideal situation to uproot to greener pastures, especially if you have marketable and transferable job skills. People who have a large investments in their homes, or kids in good school that they like, or with jobs unique to the Washington area (e.g., they work for the Feds) probably don't have that flexibility.
4. Finally, just for the sake of full disclosure, I am not fanatically in love with northern Virginia. I also happen to dislike, among other things, the miserable summer weather, the self-importance of so many people, and the mindless consumerism and status consciousness evidenced by all those McMansions and Lexus/Audi/Merecdes on the road. My job with the Feds is what brought me here, and as I've said to my wife, I hope we don't end up staying here the rest of our lives just by sheer inertia. But for the time being, however long that is, it is home and I will make the best of it.
Thank you for bringing up an interesting topic for discussion.
Thanks for your respectful and honest feedback and insight. We'll have to agree to disagree on a few points (#1-#3), but overall I appreciate that, unlike another person, you actually took the time to read and respond instead of posting more snideness and rudeness that has made the NoVA sub-forum gain the reputation it has gained for being so "standoff-ish" and "cliquey."
What do I get for expressing my viewpoints on the above issue? I get slammed. Why do I get slammed? My own personal belief is that if more and more people start second-guessing their decisions to move to NoVA before they come here based upon observations by people such as myself, then the market of prospective home-buyers will decrease, diminishing property values (which will put more people here who bought into the "bubble" upside-down and lead to higher tax rates to offset the lower values). I'm sorry, but I'm not sugar-coating the way I truly feel about certain issues just for the sake of boosting a housing market that is still too expensive for the middle-class.
Forum members react against criticisms so as to preserve high property values, lest "the truth about NoVA" (as you see it) is revealed?
People here aren't routinely attacked for dissenting about the "awesomeness" of the area, if they aren't overly dramatic or full of hyperbole. Are people attacked for saying traffic is terrible, the summers are muggy, and housing costs a lot? No, but if you assert "housing is so expensive only the rich can buy it and there's no possible reason why this stupid worthless fake area should cost so much", you're going to draw some strong reactions.
Condescension often earns a strong response. People don't like being told they're stupid for liking what they like. Most members here are of the "different strokes for different folks" type. I personally don't care for planned communities, McMansions, and SUVs, all of which are abundant in NoVA, but I don't have the self-appointed mission to show everyone the error of their ways. I see this as the City-Data Northern Virginia forum, not the "social ills of America" forum.
The recent snow-removal thread did get around 4 hostile-sounding retorts to the OP - out of ten pages of responses*. The other responses were typical C-D behavior - if one disagrees with a previous poster, they offer reasons why, instead of insulting the poster. Do you interpret the offering of an opposing viewpoint as killing the messenger?
Funny you should use the term "Debbie Downer". Such a person tends to be shunned not because they merely go against a prevailing consensus or point out negative things - it's because they go on and on and on about themselves, what they don't like, and the unfairness of everything.
Just noticed you added another slam on the forum, that it has a reputation for standoffishness and cliqueishness. And yet you wonder at the responses you get. You're the one who asserts you long for a place with real community - would you move into, for example, Del Ray, and immediately start telling the residents everything wrong with them, plus what rumors you've heard about them? And then complain that they're not friendly anymore to you?
*EDIT: well, things were going ok on pages 2, 3, 4... but I missed around page 7 where a lot of bickering did go on. And it all boiled down not to the inadequacy of snow plowing, but instead the fact the OP just doesn't like snow, period. And SB of course stepped in to add his slam on the forum. (#47). And Alanboy basically yelling that D-fens has the right to tell everyone the "full story" about the ills of NoVA, this "full story" being that it snows here (oh no!) and it's TOUGH if we don't like D-fens telling everyone our secret about snow in NoVa.
Last edited by robbobobbo; 02-04-2010 at 04:31 PM..
Location: Huntersville/Charlotte, NC and Washington, DC
26,700 posts, read 41,753,896 times
Reputation: 41381
As the individual leaving for Ft. Knox, Kentucky (BRAC) I will chime in.
My main problems with NoVA are:
1. The people's mentality. I likely have been here than any of my fellow "debbie-downers " which is 5 years. I have experienced the vibe of this area for 5 years. The mentality here is materalistic, "i'm better than you" and over-competitive. It is about driving the BMW/Mercedes, having the high level position, playing on your new Blackberry or Iphone for hours and a day (I own an Ipod Touch that I use only when on the metro), your job being the first thing people ask you, living in the nice neighborhood, and graduating from an Ivy League school. I take pride in saving for my move and job search in KY. I have tried to atone for two years of bad credit-card spending and materalism by spending my money mostly on textbooks, tuition, and new dress clothes for work. I study at an affordable university that give me bang for my buck (Park U) which may not be well-known but will give me a limited debt load when I graduate (mostly low-interest Stafford loans.) I do not need the nicest things to be happy and I sincerely wish I found this out before I dug myself into a credit card hole.
2. The cost of housing. My mother is a very-hard working single mother who served 20 years in our Air Force and took care of me by herself. I find it sad that she wants an easy commute to work and she can only afford a bad 2 bed condo in a seedy part of town instead of a nice TH or SFH which she dreams of. In our move we will likely end up in a new SFH with great room and a great neighborhood for under $220k. I think she deserves better and thank the Lord that she will have it soon.
3. Traffic. My commute is not that bad, 25 min from Landmark to Ballston. Other times, YUCK!! I just think it is appalling that to see my friends in Prince William County on Saturdays I have to go through an hour drive that should take half that time. I-95 is a nightmare on Saturdays which is just sad. North Arlington's roads are very outdated which makes my commute hairy sometimes.
4. The diversity deception. I moved here in 2004 thinking I was going to see different races of people embracing other and being colorblind. I was very wrong. There are different nationalities here I didn't see much or any of back home in Hampton Roads. But things can be very segregated here. Just look at my alma mater T.C. Williams HS and you'll see whites hanging with whites mostly, blacks with blacks, middle easterners with other middle easterners, etc. Things are no different when out and about. In Hampton Roads, it is mostly white and black but you see people of different colors intergrating with each other. I have made some great friends here of all colors. Those friends see me for my inner-self and not my skin color, I can't say that for most NoVAns.
5. NoVA vs RoVA/Hampton Roads. I'm a proud native of Hampton Roads which is considered RoVA. When I tell people of my hometown I get some reactions and stereotypes. One time at work during the Mike Vick craziness, a co-worker assumed I was sad about Vick just b/c I mentioned being from Hampton/NN I replied that I thought Vick had earned a just punishment. I get profiled as a thug just because some sports stars from HR can't act right. I also get profiled as dumb just b/c I spent most of my K-12 education in Hampton Roads/RoVA schools instead of the "great NoVA schools." Never mind that RoVA has one of the better large city public school districts in the country in Virginia Beach.
I'm just sick of being attacked every time I vent or take up for anyone who gets attacked. I still intend to visit the NoVA forum even after I'm on the ground in KY to offer my experience and defend anyone who gives an honest negative opinion on NoVA and gets blitzed. So get used to me!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
of the area, if they aren't overly dramatic or full of hyperbole. Are people attacked for saying traffic is terrible, the summers are muggy, and housing costs a lot? No, but if you assert "housing is so expensive only the rich can buy it and there's no possible reason why this stupid worthless fake area should cost so much", you're going to draw some strong reactions.
" which is 5 years. I have experienced the vibe of this area for 5 years. The mentality here is materalistic, "i'm better than you" and over-competitive. It is about driving the BMW/Mercedes, having the high level position, playing on your new Blackberry or Iphone for hours and a day (I own an Ipod Touch that I use only when on the metro), your job being the first thing people ask you, living in the nice neighborhood, and graduating from an Ivy League school. I take pride in saving for my move and job search in KY. I have tried to atone for two years of bad credit-card spending and materalism by spending my money mostly on textbooks, tuition, and new dress clothes for work. I study at an affordable university that give me bang for my buck (Park U) which may not be well-known but will give me a limited debt load when I graduate (mostly low-interest Stafford loans.) I do not need the nicest things to be happy and I sincerely wish I found this out before I dug myself into a credit card hole. 
