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Old 08-22-2010, 07:44 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,952,401 times
Reputation: 3819

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Mama_bear,

The agitated tone of your post and the constant references you make to your OWN family, your unique case, what YOU do, what YOUR kids do, who YOU ARE, while blatantly ignoring what happens in so many American families today (many of whom happen to sing the same song you do) - lends very little credibility to your argument.

Such discussions are useless if everyone limits themselves to touting their personal example and experience, while failing to understand the trends. "It's always other people, not us, right?).
But somehow, somebody makes those trends happen.

The bottom line is that the insitution of family in the US is currently one of the weakest in the world, if not THE weakest. Period.

There are so many dysfunctional families in this country - and by this, I don't just mean those who practice child abuse, wife beating and God knows what. I have seen too many perfectly respectable families (well, at least apparently) who are simply NOT close and practice a very distant and formal way of interacting with one another.

They consistently fail to help each other and be there for each other under the same doctrinary excuse of "Each man for himself", "everyone is strictly responsible for themselves and their own minor children", and nothing else.

I don't know you, so I will take your word for it that your family members are all "oh, so focused on their own personal goals" all while being "oh, so close". Usually, those things don't go hand in hand, but as a saying goes in my homecountry, "allow for the possibility of a wolf eaten by a sheep".

To participate in an activity that interests you is one thing. To talk about family members who are constantly out there doing things on their own (tons of organized activities, TV in their rooms, video games blocking interaction with anyone else in the house, furious texting, etc) is another. This scenario has, in fact, become the norm among mainstream American families, NOT the exception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
It is quite laughable that you propose solidarity to a "tribe" but you poo poo team sports. Team sports teaches all the thing you are proposing as so important.
It is quite laughable that you don't have the discernment to differentiate between family solidarity and corporate-type "team play".

In the family, people develop ties of affection for their own sake.
In a football team, people - via the group - just want to win someting: trophy, glory, money, whatever.

In the end, you can feel insulted all you want. The trick is I was not talking about your personal example. YOU are not the focus of my argument as I am simply not interested in talking about YOU, as much as you'd enjoy that.

As for the hystorical fluke - that may have been one YOU were born into. This generation is likely to face a very different scenario. Good luck engineering your kids into "better than the average Joe". The average Joe parents are having the same plans as you do.

Mine will continue to "play with sticks" for now.
TOGETHER.

Last edited by syracusa; 08-22-2010 at 07:54 PM..
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Old 08-22-2010, 07:45 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,952,401 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzie02 View Post
Who is doing that here? I personally do not know anyone with more than 4 children.
You probably would be better off not knowing anybody with more than 2 children. But you're not.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Denver area
21,147 posts, read 22,139,461 times
Reputation: 35609
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Mama_bear,

The agitated tone of your post and the constant references you make to your OWN family, your unique case, what YOU do, what YOUR kids do, who YOU ARE, while blatantly ignoring what happens in so many American families today (many of whom happen to sing the same song you do) - lends very little credibility to your argument.

Such discussions are useless if everyone limits themselves to touting their personal example and experience, while failing to understand the trends. "It's always other people, not us, right?).
But somehow, somebody makes those trends happen.

The bottom line is that the insitution of family in the US is currently one of the weakest in the world, if not THE weakest. Period.

There are so many dysfunctional families in this country - and by this, I don't just mean those who practice child abuse, wife beating and God knows what. I have seen too many perfectly respectable families (well, at least apparently) who are simply NOT close and practice a very distant and formal way of interacting with one another.

They consistently fail to help each other and be there for each other under the same doctrinary excuse of "Each man for himself", "everyone is strictly responsible for themselves and their own minor children", and nothing else.

I don't know you, so I will take your word for it that your family members are all "oh, so focused on their own personal goals" all while being "oh, so close". Usually, those things don't go hand in hand, but as a saying goes in my homecountry, "allow for the possibility of a wolf eaten by a sheep".

To participate in an activity that interests you is one thing. To talk about family members who are constantly out there doing things on their own (tons of organized activities, TV in their rooms, video games blocking interaction with anyone else in the house, furious texting, etc) is another. This scenario has, in fact, become the norm among mainstream American families, NOT the exception.



It is quite laughable that you don't have the discernment to differentiate between family solidarity and corporate-type "team play".

In the family, people develop ties of affection for their own sake.
In a football team, people - via the group - just want to win someting: trophy, glory, money, whatever.

In the end, you can feel insulted all you want. The trick is I was not talking about your personal example. YOU are not the focus of my argument as I am simply not interested in talking about YOU, as much as you'd enjoy that.

As for the hystorical fluke - that may have been one YOU were born into. This generation is likely to face a very different scenario. Good luck engineering your kids into "better than the average Joe". The average Joe parents are having the same plans as you do.

Mine will continue to "play with sticks" for now.
TOGETHER.
I can't even begin to address the arrogance on this post...so I'll just leave everyone to their own thoughts on that...

I am curious though...your kids are what - 5? What will you do, when as they grow, one has interests in art and one has interests in, I don't know...fencing? Will they be told they cannot participate in those things? Or they can but only if their sibling and parents also participate? Wonder if the budding artist hates fencing and the fencer can barely draw a straight line? Will they be forced into conformity for the good of the familial unit? Or will the family be forced to sacrifice in support of the poor soul who can't draw. Just wondering how this will all pan out.

ETA - Nevermind. I actually figured it out on my own....You allow them to participate but continue harping on your little soapbox about the horrible state of anything American and how nobody should be doing any of that....But it will be OK for you to do it because YOU (not being American and all) understand how evil it all is but you have to do it because "everyone else does" and your kids would suffer if you didn't since you're stuck in this horrible country of family hating heathens for some reason.

Last edited by maciesmom; 08-22-2010 at 08:11 PM..
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:11 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,952,401 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
I can't even begin to address the arrogance on this post...so I'll just leave everyone to their own thoughts on that...

I am curious though...your kids are what - 5? What will you do, when as they grow, one has interests in art and one has interests in, I don't know...fencing? Will they be told they cannot participate in those things? Or they can but only if their sibling and parents also participate? Wonder if the budding artist hates fencing and the fencer can barely draw a straight line? Will they be forced into conformity for the good of the familial unit? Or will the family be forced to sacrifice in support of the poor soul who can't draw. Just wondering how this will all pan out.
One more time, failing to understand the essence.

"What will my kids do if?..."
I don't particularly enjoy using what "me" and "my kids" do/will do as the crux of any argument. ut if you insist...my kids will most probably participate in "fencing" and "art" respectively, if they really burn for those. Not much else.

But their participation in whatever "individual goals" (extra-curriculars included) will be limited, so there will be plenty of together family time left over.

Again, not something that happens in a huge number of contemporary American families.
Does truth equal arrogance? Oh, well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
ETA - Nevermind. I actually figured it out on my own....You allow them to participate but continue harping on your little soapbox about the horrible state of anything American and how nobody should be doing any of that....But it will be OK for you to do it because YOU (not being American and all) understand how evil it all is but you have to do it because "everyone else does" and your kids would suffer if you didn't since you're stuck in this horrible country of family hating heathens for some reason.
Now allow me to address this part of your argument with a question as rational and eloquent as your above was:

Did you reach orgasm?
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Denver area
21,147 posts, read 22,139,461 times
Reputation: 35609
Quote:
ETA - Nevermind. I actually figured it out on my own....You allow them to participate but continue harping on your little soapbox about the horrible state of anything American and how nobody should be doing any of that....But it will be OK for you to do it because YOU (not being American and all) understand how evil it all is but you have to do it because "everyone else does" and your kids would suffer if you didn't since you're stuck in this horrible country of family hating heathens for some reason.
Quote:
I don't particularly enjoy using what "me" and "my kids" do/will do as the crux of any argument. ut if you insist...my kids will most probably participate in "fencing" and "art" respectively, if they really burn for those. Not much else.

But their participation in whatever "individual goals" (extra-curriculars included) will be limited, so there will be plenty of together family time left over.

So...pretty much exactly what I said....
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:18 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,952,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
So...pretty much exactly what I said....
Nope.
What was your score on comprehension tests in school? ...
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:22 PM
 
11,615 posts, read 19,738,691 times
Reputation: 12051
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Mama_bear,

The agitated tone of your post and the constant references you make to your OWN family, your unique case, what YOU do, what YOUR kids do, who YOU ARE, while blatantly ignoring what happens in so many American families today (many of whom happen to sing the same song you do) - lends very little credibility to your argument.
My own experiences with my family are no less credible than your general, amorphous "many American families" statement. If you can post some statistics that give credence to your argument that would be more credible than my own experiences with my own family. But your opinion is no more valid than mine and so far all you have posted is opinion about "many American families."

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
The bottom line is that the insitution of family in the US is currently one of the weakest in the world, if not THE weakest. Period.
Do you have any measurable way to quantify this or is just your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
I don't know you, so I will take your word for it that your family members are all "oh, so focused on their own personal goals" all while being "oh, so close". Usually, those things don't go hand in hand, but as a saying goes in my homecountry, "allow for the possibility of a wolf eaten by a sheep".
Do you have any measurable way to quantify that these things don't USUALLY go hand in hand or is just your opinion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
To participate in an activity that interests you is one thing. To talk about family members who are constantly out there doing things on their own (tons of organized activities, TV in their rooms, video games blocking interaction with anyone else in the house, furious texting, etc) is another. This scenario has, in fact, become the norm in mainstream American families, NOT the exception.
Who is talking about all that? Just you I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
You can feel insulted all you want. The trick is I was not talking about your personal example. YOU are not the focus of my argument as I am simply not interested in talking about YOU.
Nice try but your post was definitely focused on MY personal example. Go back and re read it. You wrote:

"But hopefully, lacross skills will help your kids when life will hit hard."

I think that was pretty focused on me an my example.

You also wrote:

"You should try it sometimes."

I think that's also pretty specifically targeted at me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
As for the hystorical fluke - that may have been one YOU were born into. Your kids are likely to face a very different scenario. Good luck engineering them into "better than the average Joe". The average Joe parents are having the same plans as you do.

Mine will continue to "play with sticks" for now.
TOGETHER.
The situation in the US is not changing to one where the collective achievement of the family will eclipse individual achievement any time soon.

As for "engineering" my kids into anything those are YOUR words, not mine. I do have plans to teach my kids how to set goals as well as how to achieve them. Since we are not really the average Joe family I am pretty sure my kids will come out all right. They have lots of resources at their disposal (not just money).

Learning to set goals and achieve them is the most important thing that people have to learn in order to be successful. Unfortunately, it is something your kids will NEVER learn by playing with sticks TOGETHER.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:27 PM
 
11,615 posts, read 19,738,691 times
Reputation: 12051
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Again, not something that happens in a huge number of contemporary American families.
Does truth equal arrogance?
Do you have some quantifiable statistics to prove that it is not something that happens in contemporary American families?

If you hate it here why do you stay?
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:32 PM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,952,401 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
Since we are not really the average Joe family I am pretty sure my kids will come out all right. They have lots of resources at their disposal (not just money).
Ladies and gentlemen, give a round of applause for mama_bear, our non-average Joesse, and her kids' wonderful odds!!
Doesn't it feel awesome to turn a discussion into something about "you"? I thought so.

But time's a wastin', Ma'm, and you're gonna miss that charity ball if you continue to argue with the unwashed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
Do you have some quantifiable statistics
Urghh...statistics are, by definition... quantifiable.

Do I have statistics? No. (Picking an eye off the floor that just happened to role out of my head).

I just know because a fairy told me, in all of her epistemological splendor.

Last edited by syracusa; 08-22-2010 at 08:45 PM..
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Denver area
21,147 posts, read 22,139,461 times
Reputation: 35609
syracusa - disregarding your classless comment, what you fail to understand is we don't live our lives as statistics you read about. Statistics are made up of individual experience. That is true no matter which country or part of the world one lives in. I have to admit I too have wondered why you stay here. In fact, I believe it's been asked several time over the time you've been posting and you ignore question each time. Interesting.
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