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Old 01-10-2012, 01:07 PM
 
8,015 posts, read 3,437,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Why is drawing on walls ever OK and no, I don't think "because they want to" is a good enough reason.
In my case, the painting on walls was ok once. When we opened the daycare, we had a big white wall, freshly painted. I had a fresh new daycare and brand new kids. We wanted to make the space our own. So we each got a small space to put a hand print in paint and sign our names.

I think the more rigid the expectation of behavior, the more necessary punitive measures are necessary. Not being able to imagine any case at all in which it might be cool to paint on a wall is kind of crazy. If Mom and child do a mural on the bedroom wall, do you think that that child won't be able to understand not to on someone else' wall? I guess I tend to think a little more highly about my kids' intelligence!
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
There's a big difference between a mural and juniors random scribblings in terms of societal acceptibility. I personally don't know of any families that consider randomly drawing on the walls to be acceptable. If you want to draw, here is some acceptable medium for drawing. If you insist on drawing on the walls then we are going to have an issue.
I don't know any families that consider random drawing on the walls to be acceptable, either. But I do know many families that foster their kids' creativity and self-expression by allowing them to draw on specially prepared walls, or paper-covered walls. Or, if they don't do that, they still don't punish the kid for being curious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
What happened in school when you weren't there and they weren't surrouned by like-minded people who loved free expression and saying yes? Must have been a rude awakening.
Not really. My son was 6 & 7 when he attended school - he understood the rules and guidelines of being in school. Kids aren't idiots, or wild beasts. (most kids, anyway) At 4, it would have been a rude awakening; at 6, it was part of life. A part of life we both hated, so I brought him home to homeschool. Which, before you go off on how sheltered they must be - we are out in the world more than we're home. Dealing with all kinds of people and situations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
The macro concept you are presenting is that we must foster an environment and/or situation where our children are represented as the center of the universe.
The center of MY universe. Our family is our center. They get that they're not the center of THE universe. Home and family are special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Things must adapt to them and allow them to be "free" to explore and do what they wish. You are setting them up for sad disappointment in the future when they realize that the world doesn't bend its knee to the whims of an indulged under-discipined person. Maybe your method worked great for your kids under your constant tutelage, but I feel it would be a dismal failure in my home.
They are in the world!! They live *in the world* now, with its rules, expectations, boundaries, etc. and have NO trouble navigating them. Do you think kids never grow? Do you think if I do one thing at home, they will forever believe that's the way it is, everywhere in the world? They don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Why would a kid do something they knew they shouldn't? Seriously, you're a parent and you need to ask this? Sometimes its attention, sometimes its boredom, sometimes its simply because they want to, sometimes they want to "express" themselves, etc.
Which, again, is why I advocate connection, presence, and communication.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
As for the wall, the answer is that you have made drawing on walls acceptable and appropriate because you wanted to "say yes" and let them have the freedom to express themselves. A young child doesn't see the difference between your wall and a friends wall, it's just a wall and in their world it's OK to draw on walls because I do it at home.
They DO see the difference! You don't know that, because you don't allow it in your home, would never allow it. I DID allow it, and they know the difference. A very, very young child? No, you're right, they wouldn't - but who puts a toddler in a room with paint and expects them to not paint?

Let's see... I also allowed them to jump on our couch. The only other couch they jumped on was in a friend's home who also allowed it. They never even tried it at anyone else's house. Or, if they did, a simple, "Grandma doesn't want you to do that" would suffice. If they insisted, find them something else to jump on. No punishment needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
So, if your child does something wrong and needs to make amends you go through that whole process with them to the point of doing the work? What are they learning? It's OK to screw up mom will come and pick up the pieces and tell her friend "it's OK Johnny was just expressing himself and I encourage that". Then we will never go back to that house again because it just isn't an environment that is supportive of Johnny's creativity....please.
That's not what I said at all. WE would wash the wall, or repaint it. We would be able to go back to that person's home, because I don't hang out with people who don't understand kids make mistakes sometimes. I would never say, "It's OK." I would say, "I'm so sorry. We'll make it right." And I would make sure it didn't happen again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I'm starting to see where the problem may lie though. You have what, two kids? Currently aged 13 and 19? So, two kids, 6 years apart in age. somebodynew has how many and what ages? She also runs a daycare for younger kids apparently?
Running a daycare is - should be - vastly different from being a mom. Some of the principles will work the same; many of them will not. I taught preschool, there are things I allowed my kids to do that there's no way I could have allowed a group of 8 kids to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I think the strategies are being influenced by the family dynamic in terms of the number and age spread of the kids involved. Mine are 7, 3 and 2...I can only be so progressive before my wife and I would end up chained to a table while the kids ransacked the house in warpaint....but it's OK, they are just expressing themselves.
Larger families than yours live this way, very successfully and happily, and have produced kids that live in the world successfully and happily, within the law, able to negotiate and thrive in public, etc. If you don't want to live this way - in joy, trust, partnership, no yelling, no punishing - then don't. But many, many families do, many with as many kids as you have, or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Healthy typical children don't occasionally get in trouble for not paying attention in school, not cleaning up their toys and drawing on walls?
I'm sure they do. But *most* kids, once you let them know painting a wall in someone else's home isn't acceptable, will not go back and insist on painting the wall, especially not if you're offering alternatives.

Last edited by CharlotteGal; 01-10-2012 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:24 PM
 
Location: here
16,659 posts, read 13,013,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
In my case, the painting on walls was ok once. When we opened the daycare, we had a big white wall, freshly painted. I had a fresh new daycare and brand new kids. We wanted to make the space our own. So we each got a small space to put a hand print in paint and sign our names.

I think the more rigid the expectation of behavior, the more necessary punitive measures are necessary. Not being able to imagine any case at all in which it might be cool to paint on a wall is kind of crazy. If Mom and child do a mural on the bedroom wall, do you think that that child won't be able to understand not to on someone else' wall? I guess I tend to think a little more highly about my kids' intelligence!
. the scenario given was not about painting a mural on a specific wall with permission given by a parent or a daycare provider. It was about kids getting out crayons or markers and scribbling on a random wall, then being "told" if not with so many words that it was ok. There are very very few walls, homes, or other buildings where that would be acceptable. No consequences were given. the behavior was in fact encouraged when paper was put up on the wall. Why would the child assume it was not ok in anther location?
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
. the scenario given was not about painting a mural on a specific wall with permission given by a parent or a daycare provider. It was about kids getting out crayons or markers and scribbling on a random wall, then being "told" if not with so many words that it was ok. There are very very few walls, homes, or other buildings where that would be acceptable. No consequences were given. the behavior was in fact encouraged when paper was put up on the wall. Why would the child assume it was not ok in anther location?
And they understand that.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:32 PM
 
Location: here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
And they understand that.
understand what?

Being allowed to draw on a wall is an exception, not a rule. It is much more logical to look at it that way, than to pretend that there enough circumstances where it would be allowed to just treat it like a normal thing.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
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Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
OK, charlotte's kids are not invited to my house!
They are perfectly behaved gentlemen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
Back when the kids colored on the wall the first time at our own house, I'd have made them clean it and/or paint it. That is a logical consequence. Putting paper up so they can color on it, on the wall doesn't teach them anything.
It teaches them that they're taken seriously. It teaches them that mom sees them, and values what they want to do. If not putting paper on the wall, then at least recognizing the underlying desire and providing a BIG blank canvas somewhere appropriate. IF that's the case - it might just need a short, "Oh! Let's draw on paper." I'm talking about if the desire persists.

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Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
Theoretically I love the idea of natural consequences. The issue I have with relying too heavily on them is that it could take too long to get to the consequence; and/or the consequence is too harsh when it finally happens. I'm thinking of things like injuries from falling off of something they weren't supposed to be climbing on. I'm not going to sit around and wait for that to happen. I'm going to tell them not to climb on it. If they continue, they get a time out, or we leave the park, or whatever.
Could you help them climb on it safely? If not, can you find somewhere else they can climb safely? If you find the 'yes', they understand the "no"s much better. "You can't climb on this thing at the park, but when we go to the gym, you can climb there."

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
When they get older, do you let them drink and drive and wait for the natural consequence? Of course not! If you find out they do it once they need a parent-given consequence - a big one!
Why would a kid drink and drive? I did, because I knew I'd get in trouble if I called for a ride, because I wasn't supposed to have been drinking at all. Both of my guys know that no matter what, I will come get them, or pay for the cab, no questions asked. Since I don't punish, they aren't afraid to tell me things. I'm assuming - I don't have experience with this yet - that will extend to drinking. Most older unschoolers I know don't have the need to drink heavily that lots of kids seem to.

If one of my kids did drink & drive... Well. I honestly have no idea. It would depend on the circumstances of that particular situation.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:39 PM
 
Location: In Line For The E Ticket Ride
20,612 posts, read 11,037,987 times
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Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
because I don't hang out with people who don't understand kids make mistakes sometimes. I would never say, "It's OK." I would say, "I'm so sorry. We'll make it right." And I would make sure it didn't happen again.
First, I admire that you put your lifestyle/child rearing out there for all of us to critique. Very interesting to learn about.

Now a few questions: Who ARE you hanging out with? Other families with similar attitudes towards child-rearing and other unschoolers? You must run into the "tsk-tsk'ers" IRL. Do you explain to them what you are doing?
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:44 PM
 
Location: here
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Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
They are perfectly behaved gentlemen.



It teaches them that they're taken seriously. It teaches them that mom sees them, and values what they want to do. If not putting paper on the wall, then at least recognizing the underlying desire and providing a BIG blank canvas somewhere appropriate. IF that's the case - it might just need a short, "Oh! Let's draw on paper." I'm talking about if the desire persists.



Could you help them climb on it safely? If not, can you find somewhere else they can climb safely? If you find the 'yes', they understand the "no"s much better. "You can't climb on this thing at the park, but when we go to the gym, you can climb there."



Why would a kid drink and drive? I did, because I knew I'd get in trouble if I called for a ride, because I wasn't supposed to have been drinking at all. Both of my guys know that no matter what, I will come get them, or pay for the cab, no questions asked. Since I don't punish, they aren't afraid to tell me things. I'm assuming - I don't have experience with this yet - that will extend to drinking. Most older unschoolers I know don't have the need to drink heavily that lots of kids seem to.

If one of my kids did drink & drive... Well. I honestly have no idea. It would depend on the circumstances of that particular situation.
All fine and dandy in theory. In real life, not so much. When we are at "park A" and they can't follow the rules, I'm not going to pack up and drive them to "park B" where they can climb like they want. That teaches them that when they break the rules, they get to go to another park. That's not the message I want to send. You play safely, or you don't play. That's my message. There is a "yes" in that.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
.
Tone doesn't carry. I was being silly. Pokey humor. I am sure that she and her family will be fine, fine.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:54 PM
 
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Well I guess we agree with different experts. I certainly don't place a great deal of trust in the schools or that the teachers in them are anything like experts. Having looked into the required education, I definitely don't consider them experts in children.
I never said I agreed that they were experts, hence why I put the word experts in quotes. I was merely explaining where the color chart system came from and how it is used in the school. If you want to argue with a system used in schools nationwide, designed by some of the foremost authorities in child psychology and backed with mountains of empirical research, have at it.

I imagine the average teacher is at least as much of an "expert" in children and their behavior as the average home daycare provider whose read too many books...

The rest of us shared how many kids we have and what their ages are, how about you?

I'm not inferring that having more kids or having them closer together gives me any greater perspective or authority on this matter. I just want to point out that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to discipline and different families require different strategies and those can vary from kid to kid and change as they get older and circumstances change. The macro concepts are great, but the nuts and bolts of implementation are harder to get to. With three kids close in age we don't have the luxury of letting them self-realize what acceptable behavior is.

Quote:
The notion that one not ought to have to think still baffles me.
Whose not thinking? It's not easy coming up with an endless string of creative punishments to inflict the highest degree of misery just so I can have 10 minutes of peace and quiet to watch the hockey game...

Really though, I feel I put at least as much thought into the discipline strategy we employ, even if it does involve "punishment" and yes, the occasional spanking. It all comes down to how you view it. You view consequence/punishment as a last resort, or the first resort of a lazy parent. I view it as a constructive way to reinforce the lesson I am teaching.

Quote:
So do I. But then so does he.
My son wants to behave in school and makes an effort to do it. The knowledge that there are consequences if he doesn't provides an extra layer of incentive to do the right thing if there is a moment of weakness. It also reinforces the concept that we have responsibilities and cannot do the things we enjoy until we take care of our responsibilities. I'd rather have a slightly arbitrary "consequence" at this age then waiting for natural consequences to take effect.

School is his job, video games are one of his hobbies, we don't get to play our games if we don't do a good job. Just like in the real world where if daddy slacks off at work and gets canned we don't get to eat.

Quote:
I hope this works for you.
Its worked very well. My kids aren't perfect, they test the boundaries, they do things they aren't supposed to do, but we address all of that in a constructive and positive manner that just happens to include punishments to reinforce the point that our actions have consequences, sometimes one that a 7 year old simply can't comprehend.

My goal is to raise functioning, responsible, self-sufficient adults that are prepared for the real world. If I rain on their creativity and expression parade from time to time, it's necessary to reach the end goal.
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