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You Won't Find A Place In America Without It, But I Would Say That The Phoenix Area Is A Good Place For You. There Are Many Middle-easterners Here Who Love The Climate Because It Is Similar To Arab Countries. Unless You Draw Attention To Yourselves, Ie Wear Face Coverings Or Turbans, You Should Escape Any Undue Attention At All. The Indian Who Was Killed When He Was Wearing A Turban Is A Good Example Of The Extreme Reactions That You Will See Here Now And Then, So I Would Myself Not Try And Stand Out Especially With The 'war' Going On. The Comments About Mexicans 'hating' White Americans Would Be Laughable If It Weren't So Pathetic.
Just a point to ponder. What do White Mexicans think about White Americans? Legitimate question I think. Everybody is so bogged down with this erroneous notion that Mexican, Latin, and Hispanic are races of people they can't see the truth due to their own misguided political correctness. But the facts stand on their own that there are plenty of Mexicans who are White--descended mainly from the colonial Spaniards and secondly Frenchmen! A White Mexican would be stupid to look at a White American as a different race! That would be the same as a White Canadian looking at a White American as a different race.
Just a point to ponder. What do White Mexicans think about White Americans? Legitimate question I think. Everybody is so bogged down with this erroneous notion that Mexican, Latin, and Hispanic are races of people they can't see the truth due to their own misguided political correctness. But the facts stand on their own that there are plenty of Mexicans who are White--descended mainly from the colonial Spaniards and secondly Frenchmen! A White Mexican would be stupid to look at a White American as a different race! That would be the same as a White Canadian looking at a White American as a different race.
There is quite a bit of racism within the 'Hispanic' community as it is. The standard of beauty in that culture is white skin and blue eyes.
Most North American Latinos are actually at least part American Indian but tend to deny it by using weasel words like Hispanic and Latino for the reason stated above.
I think race relations between Hispanics and Caucasians will improve. I do understand the flipside however. As a physician, I see plenty of Hispanic patients. They don't speak English and that can be frustrating. Many of the ones I treat have been in this country for over 10 years yet have made no effort to learn the language. I know people from Asian countries that make it their priority to learn English as soon as they get here. If I moved to another country, I would feel it's my duty to learn the native language. That facet upsets a lot of people here because many problems are simply due to the language itself. And when most non-Hispanic Americans express these frustrations, they can be labeled as racist which is unfair since it's not the color of their skin or heritage they take offense to but their failure to integrate while maintaining their culture.
But, I also see the other side. Nearly all of my patients' children speak fluent English. Many of these same immigrants who have lived here for 10+ years that don't speak English insist on their children learning English. I think if a lot of people knew this fact, their frustration would be diminished. Sure, I still see children that were born and raised here that don't try to learn English but that is extremely rare. Also, there are so many Hispanics here that they don't have to learn English. We assume we would learn the language if we moved. However, if we were forced to move to Mexico and there were plenty of English speaking people there with entertainment, communications and other infrastructure in English, how many people would really learn the native language?
Lastly, I will state this. I think many Hispanics have to take responsibility for many of the problems they face here. There is a lot of teenage pregnancy and single mothers in Hispanic communities much like African American communities elsewhere. I see a lot of STD's and developmentally delayed children as a result of these problems which perpetuates the cycle. I know 7 year old Hispanic children who can't write their name in English or Spanish despite being able to communicate well. No, these children don't have learning disorders or neurological disorders like mental retardation. They just didn't have parents to teach them and the school system just passes them along. Being poor does not preclude you to these conditions. I've seen poor Chinese, Hungarian, Indian, Malaysian, Pakastani, Polish and Vietnamese immigrants excell here despite having no money due to their cultural insistence upon family and education.
In my experience in Arizona, the people most racist towards Hispanics are the wealthy elderly. They grew up in a different time and are not used to living with people of color. In addition, they are very patriotic and pro-American to the degree that they take great offense by many of the Hispanics' failure to assimilate much more than younger white Americans. This is why I think relations will improve. There will be an increased number of English speaking Hispanic Americans as the children of these immigrants grow up. In addition, the younger non-Hispanic population has more exposure to their culture and language so I think there will be an increased level of tolerance on both sides.
Arabians are considered white by the census, and as I pointed out in a previous thread, Arabians were the first Aryans.
I don't think it really matters. Regardless of how they are classified on the census, Arabs are not typically thought of as "white" people by society as large. A racist is not going to verify your census classification. You can argue that point until you are blue in the face but people are going to believe what they want to believe and right now, people don't want to accept Arabs as white people.
It's like the Tiger Woods debate. Tiger may technically be more Asian than Black but he looks more Black and is perceived to be a Black person in this society. Many Arabs may have white skin but they are not perceived to be "white" regardless if they see themselves that way.
My advice to you is this: You are going to be perceived as a brown Middle Eastern by the society at large. Instead of trying to be white, be proud of being Middle Eastern. Trust me, society will accept a person who is proud of his heritage than someone who tries to be something he or she isn't
I know Indians from the state of Punjab who tries to refer to themselves as Caucasians as well and they just come accross as being ridiculous.
I respect what Jewish Americans did. In many parts of this country, people don't consider Jews to be white regardless of their appearance. This is particularly true in the South in which the KKK and fundamentalist Baptists considered Jewish to be something other than white. Jews took that offense and turned it into a positive by embracing their culture and identity as being Jewish. I have Jewish friends who have blonde hair and blue eyes and they don't think of themselves as white; they call themselves Jewish.
I think race relations between Hispanics and Caucasians will improve. I do understand the flipside however. As a physician, I see plenty of Hispanic patients. They don't speak English and that can be frustrating. Many of the ones I treat have been in this country for over 10 years yet have made no effort to learn the language. I know people from Asian countries that make it their priority to learn English as soon as they get here. If I moved to another country, I would feel it's my duty to learn the native language. That facet upsets a lot of people here because many problems are simply due to the language itself. And when most non-Hispanic Americans express these frustrations, they can be labeled as racist which is unfair since it's not the color of their skin or heritage they take offense to but their failure to integrate while maintaining their culture.
But, I also see the other side. Nearly all of my patients' children speak fluent English. Many of these same immigrants who have lived here for 10+ years that don't speak English insist on their children learning English. I think if a lot of people knew this fact, their frustration would be diminished. Sure, I still see children that were born and raised here that don't try to learn English but that is extremely rare. Also, there are so many Hispanics here that they don't have to learn English. We assume we would learn the language if we moved. However, if we were forced to move to Mexico and there were plenty of English speaking people there with entertainment, communications and other infrastructure in English, how many people would really learn the native language?
Lastly, I will state this. I think many Hispanics have to take responsibility for many of the problems they face here. There is a lot of teenage pregnancy and single mothers in Hispanic communities much like African American communities elsewhere. I see a lot of STD's and developmentally delayed children as a result of these problems which perpetuates the cycle. I know 7 year old Hispanic children who can't write their name in English or Spanish despite being able to communicate well. No, these children don't have learning disorders or neurological disorders like mental retardation. They just didn't have parents to teach them and the school system just passes them along. Being poor does not preclude you to these conditions. I've seen poor Chinese, Hungarian, Indian, Malaysian, Pakastani, Polish and Vietnamese immigrants excell here despite having no money due to their cultural insistence upon family and education.
In my experience in Arizona, the people most racist towards Hispanics are the wealthy elderly. They grew up in a different time and are not used to living with people of color. In addition, they are very patriotic and pro-American to the degree that they take great offense by many of the Hispanics' failure to assimilate much more than younger white Americans. This is why I think relations will improve. There will be an increased number of English speaking Hispanic Americans as the children of these immigrants grow up. In addition, the younger non-Hispanic population has more exposure to their culture and language so I think there will be an increased level of tolerance on both sides.
Okay, again, beating the horse to death here as I will continue to do! Hispanic and Caucasian CANNOT be contrasted or compared to one another! Hispanic is not a race, but cultures and language dialects of Spanish-speaking people. Caucasians are people from the Caucasus region of Eurasia and although they are White, the term is wrongly used to encompass the whole White race as a whole.
So, by Caucasian you mean White. Well, there are many millions of White Hispanics who are every bit as White as Anglos! Therefore it is erroneous and inconsistant to use Hispanic vs. White since Hispanic is not a race and White is.
African American is not a race either. Africa consists of 5o plus nations and not all consist of Black people. Many Africans are White, especially in northern and southern Africa and many coastal areas. Many Africans are varying degrees of Mulattos, and many are Black. But not all Africans are Black nor are all Blacks on Earth of African descent!
I don't think it really matters. Regardless of how they are classified on the census, Arabs are not typically thought of as "white" people by society as large. A racist is not going to verify your census classification. You can argue that point until you are blue in the face but people are going to believe what they want to believe and right now, people don't want to accept Arabs as white people.
It's like the Tiger Woods debate. Tiger may technically be more Asian than Black but he looks more Black and is perceived to be a Black person in this society. Many Arabs may have white skin but they are not perceived to be "white" regardless if they see themselves that way.
My advice to you is this: You are going to be perceived as a brown Middle Eastern by the society at large. Instead of trying to be white, be proud of being Middle Eastern. Trust me, society will accept a person who is proud of his heritage than someone who tries to be something he or she isn't
I know Indians from the state of Punjab who tries to refer to themselves as Caucasians as well and they just come accross as being ridiculous.
I respect what Jewish Americans did. In many parts of this country, people don't consider Jews to be white regardless of their appearance. This is particularly true in the South in which the KKK and fundamentalist Baptists considered Jewish to be something other than white. Jews took that offense and turned it into a positive by embracing their culture and identity as being Jewish. I have Jewish friends who have blonde hair and blue eyes and they don't think of themselves as white; they call themselves Jewish.
Look, perceptions or not people are what they are regardless of where they're from. Middle East is a region, not a race so speaking of "instead of being proud to be White, be proud to be Middle Eastern" is foolish.
There's 2 branches of the White race, the Nordic (Japhetic) and Mediterranean (Semitic), both of which have naturally light skin. The modern population of White people are largely a mixture of these 2 White branches Nordics just happen to be lighter to a degree or 2. Examples of each: Nordic Whites - Arnold Schwartzenegger, Owen Wilson, Brendan Gleeson, Nick Nolte, and such; Mediterranean Whites - Tony Shalhoub, F. Murray Abraham, Jamie Farr, Saddam Hussein, etc.; all White naturally whether certain people want to accept that or not doesn't change it one iota. CHeck this out. Ralph Nader, Casey Kasem, Danny Thomas, Tiny Tim, and a host of other Americans are of Middle Eastern ancestry, but I dare say the majority of them are and were considered White today by the average American!
Another thing, one cannot look Asian, but you can look Black. Black is a race but Asian is from Asia, a continent, not a physical look! Asians can be White, Black, or Mulatto. Mongoloid Asians with the epicanthic fold are a result of ancient mixing between Blacks and Whites, agree or not, doesn't change the facts! An Israeli, Saudi, Yemenite, Armenian, Iranian, Afghan, Uzbek, and Asian Russian, and an Indian or Pakistani are every bit equally as Asian as a Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Laotian, or Burmese, like or agree or not, doesn't change the facts! They all have different looks but who's to determine which is more Asian or not! That's ridiculous! And besides, many Mongoloid Asians are so light-skinned they could easily pass as White and what's wrong with that. Many are also so dark and near Black as any Black African they are Black. Many Indians are Black especially in southern India. And yes! Some are White--throwbacks to the Aryan (Mede) invasion of 1500 BC.
This is what happens when people let personal biases and political egendas, and certain uneducated beliefs trump or usurp common sense and logic. It doesn't matter what someone considers or doesn't consider you or theirself. You are what you are whether you like it or not regardless of perceptions and opinions! Facts stare down opinions any day of the week and only the ignorant, foolish, and politically correct can't escape their own ludacrisy!
Since the issue of race came up, what most people are unaware is that there is no such thing as a "race" in strict scientific terms. The concept of "race" is more of a social creation than a purely scientific one. The truth is there is no such thing as a white race or even a black race. There is so much genetic variation in individuals that to confine them to a particular race is not accepted by the scientific community. There can be similarity but that's not the same thing as defining people within a strict subset. Therefore, to ignore social perceptions and culture when defining race is misguided. Individuals like Florida Southerner may think there is objective evidence that neatly defines people within a particular race but in reality it's just his or her opinion of what constitures members of a particular race. Even scientists can't agree on the definitions of race. If Florida Southerner wants to provide evidence defining race in one particular fashion(as he has already done), I could provide another reference that stated different information. To elucidate the social implications in defining or identifying race, let's use an example he listed previously. He refers to the Nordic and Mediterranean branches as being the two branches that constitute the white race. What he fails to address is that they don't have the exact same skin tone. People in the Mediterranean have an "olive complexion" which is indicative of higher melanin levels. So where do you draw the line in determining what is white skin? Is white skin defined as olive complexion and lighter? Who determines that? Let's move in a slightly different direction, If a person is born to a black and white parent, what race are they? Those children are typically identified as being mulatto. Who came up with the term mulatto? I hope you see the point I'm getting at.
"Who came up with the term mulatto? I hope you see the point I'm getting at."
Mulatto is a racial slur in English. It is derived from Spanish for "little mule", a cross between a horse and a donkey. Call someone a mulatto in this country and you might get (properly) decked. The preferred term is bi-racial, multi-racial or even mixed.
BTW, in AZ children of black and white parents are tabulated as "more than one race" when it comes up. Fortunately, we are moving away from race as a classification. This is due in part I suppose to the sensitivity of it and in part to the fact that more and more mixing is going on and it is getting difficult to put names on it all that make everyone happy. Racial identification serves no real purpose other than to perpetuate racism and is a vestige of an age of intorance. I look forward to, but doubt I will ever see, the day when questions about race are dropped altogether.
Last edited by Ponderosa; 12-16-2007 at 06:20 AM..
One I have been noticing is there seems to be a huge and growing cultural gulf between Blacks born before 1960 vs. those born after 1980.
The latter 'people of color' seem to perceive the older generation as almost being 'quaint' at best and 'ignorant' at worst.
Maybe it is due to the Gen Y 'Blacks' having much better opportunities and no Jim Crow laws to deal with. Hard to say.
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