diversity? Racism? (Phoenix: wages, jobs, house)

[cxray]

I will admit this about the Phoenix metro. They are very racist toward Mexicans. Seriously, I've not heard racist comments about any other ethnic group but I regularly hear racist comments about Mexicans. Even some of the comments here that are not meant to be racist are racist. Why should we penalize someone because they choose not to integrate into mainstream white culture. People should respect people for who they are even if it means they don't adopt the mainstream.

I do feel that a lot of the racism toward Mexicans in Phoenix is cultural. People grew up hating Mexicans here. Their parents didn't like them and now they don't like them. We are trained to hire Mexicans because they are cheap labor. Hire the Mexican gardener because he is cheap. Hire a Mexican housemaid because she will save you a lot of money but make sure to watch her so she doesn't steal anything. Need some project to be done, drive by Home Depot and pick up some Mexicans.Damn Mexicans move to Phoenix but don't learn English. It's almost like the white people in Phoenix are taught to hate Mexicans and think of them dirty Mexicans.

It's strange because these same people have been very gracious with me but with Mexicans, it's like a double standard. They just hate Mexicans for whatever reason. It's one thing to hate illegal immigration and another thing entirely to hate Mexicans personally. In Phoenix, it seems like people have a difficult time distinguishing between the two.

I like the Mexicans personally. They work hard. They don't give you attitude. They are polite and quiet for the most part. If you go to a McDonalds, the Mexican cashier is usualy nicer than the punk teenage girl who feels she is too good for her job.

[bigtallredhead]

Originally Posted by cxray

Yes, I know there are wealthy and educated bigots but those people are not openly racist. I'm okay with closet racists. This is a free country. People have a right to believe whatever they way. If someone wants to hate me for the color of my skin so be it however, don't yell obscenities and don't assault me. Whatever someone says in their own home is their business.The problem with the working class variety of rednecks is that they tend to be openly racist which I have a problem with.

I can understand that but many closited racists DO ingage in descrimination in real estate, jobs, etc.., and in fact cuase much harm in the prosses.

I also certainly do not condone redneck style racism, -I have seen it and it is ugly I actualy try to confront people on it, which is easier becuase I am one of them (working class white that is). -Difficult and at times dangerous, but to me still worth it, -but that means also recognizing they THEY are also often victims of bigotry of a diferant sort. I am just saying that far from all "rednecks" by appearance or culture, class status etc.., are by any means openly racist or racist all even.

There is actualy a lot of class/cultural bigotry I would say against working class whites specifically in the U.S., which I have certainly experienced myself many times here in the "tolerant" S.F. bay area. I am working class and of mostly European decent (except for one 32'th black ancestry.) myself. -Emil.

[cxray]

Originally Posted by Arizona Annie

I realize this post was in response to someone else, but I just wanted to pop in and say that I wouldn't say going to bars and drinking with friends is part of the American culture. I have never been one to go out drinking in bars and none of my friends would expect me to do so. There are plenty of other things we can do together. Many of my friends enjoy drinking together occassionally, but I'm just not much of a drinker. I don't think you should ever feel pressured to go out and drink. IMO, your beliefs should be respected always and good friends would not expect you to compromise yourself just to fit in. It has nothing to do with assimilating or disrespecting American culture. Just to be clear, usually when people say others should assimilate to the American culture, they are referring to people who have come here from another country, not those who were born here. Respecting our culture IMO includes things such as learning the English language, respecting the flag and what it stands for, supporting our country by being productive citizens and contributing to the economy, etc.

I would like to agree with you but I don't. I think too many people in this country assume being American is in fact going to bars, eating meat, watching sports, having pre-marital sex, sleeping around, being clean shaven and trying to look like everyone else...etc I know this is a big reason why Mormons are discriminated against by the mainstream here. I know people who won't live in Gilbert simply too many Mormons live there.

I fit the person above but I have friends who are American. They were born and raised here. They speak fluent English but they are also tied down to their own culture. Many of them are vegetarians and actively participate in their temple. Many of the Sikhs I know wear turbans and have beards but grew up here. Sorry, but they are not treated the same way I am because people hold it against them for not integrating.

My wife is a vegetarian and she gets $#%# from waiters in restaurats for asking them to hold meat on her food because it's too weird for them.

[Arizona Annie]

Originally Posted by cxray

Phoenix is a part of the west coast as far as i'm concerned so it's much more liberal than Omaha, KC, Dallas, Houston, and Austin to name a few cities.

We have both conservatives and rednecks. Mormons are conservative but they are highly educated and respectful. They may not endorse your beliefs but they will treat you with respect. Mormons are not like Southern Baptists that you find in cities like Dallas and Houston.

We do have some white trash/redneck elements. Those people mostly congregate on the west side and east Mesa. In general, I would avoid the west side. People in the Phoenix metro (aka the valley) generally make fun of the west side because it can very white trash. The Arrowhead area is wealthy but it's mostly fully of rich retirees but the younger people in Arrowhead tend to be a little racist. So I wouldn't live in Goodyear, Suprise or Peoria if I could help it.

The most liberal and diverse area in the valley is South Tempe/Chandler/Ahwautukee area. Intel is located there and most of the engineers in the area are Indian or Pakastani. Little Asia is located in that area at the cross-streets of Warner and Dobson. Also, Scottsdale tends to be pretty wealthy and progressive.

However, compared to Omaha, the west side is pretty liberal!

Oh cxray! Say it isn't so!!! Don't tell me you are one of THEM!!! A West Valley hater???!!! Calling us white trash/Rednecks??? I just don't know what to say. You have effectively rendered me speechless.....for the moment.

[bigtallredhead]

Too many conflate "mexicans" as whole with illegal immigrants as a whole only 56% of whom are Mexican, -and most people of Mexican decent are either U.S. born or legal immigrants. However, becuase there is such a conflict about the border and so many illegal immigrants there is actualy a lot of racism that goes BOTH ways, unfortunately.

But some are just racist no matter what and the whole immigration issue just provides an excuse to come out in the open. Racism very much goes both ways, however (and every other way too!) This is very sad.

There are also a lot who are NOT racist against mexicans (who are not a race BTW but mostly multiracial) but still aposed to illegal immigration. Unfortunately, many treat us as if we were all racist by definition.


Personally, I do not hire a Mexican gardener or housecleaner nor do most americans, actualy. I do the work myself, and have also hired housecleaners who were not immigrants. The white as well as black U.S. working class often feel economically and culturally threatened by mass immigration and especially illegal becuase they are the most negatively affected by it aside from Mexican-Americans (U.S. born), so they are the most likely to dislike mexicans. A lot have fled areas where there is a high immigrant population, especially Southern California which actualy used to have a lot of working class whites, and many of them moved to Phoenix and now are facing the same thing.

It is very unfortunate that part of the effect of the illegal immigration problem is to encrease levils of bigotry along ethnic lines, (as well as class based conflict especially among whites), but it is true.

Originally Posted by cxray

I will admit this about the Phoenix metro. They are very racist toward Mexicans. Seriously, I've not heard racist comments about any other ethnic group but I regularly hear racist comments about Mexicans. Even some of the comments here that are not meant to be racist are racist. Why should we penalize someone because they choose not to integrate into mainstream white culture. People should respect people for who they are even if it means they don't adopt the mainstream.

I do feel that a lot of the racism toward Mexicans in Phoenix is cultural. People grew up hating Mexicans here. Their parents didn't like them and now they don't like them. We are trained to hire Mexicans because they are cheap labor. Hire the Mexican gardener because he is cheap. Hire a Mexican housemaid because she will save you a lot of money but make sure to watch her so she doesn't steal anything. Need some project to be done, drive by Home Depot and pick up some Mexicans.Damn Mexicans move to Phoenix but don't learn English. It's almost like the white people in Phoenix are taught to hate Mexicans and think of them dirty Mexicans.

It's strange because these same people have been very gracious with me but with Mexicans, it's like a double standard. They just hate Mexicans for whatever reason. It's one thing to hate illegal immigration and another thing entirely to hate Mexicans personally. In Phoenix, it seems like people have a difficult time distinguishing between the two.

I like the Mexicans personally. They work hard. They don't give you attitude. They are polite and quiet for the most part. If you go to a McDonalds, the Mexican cashier is usualy nicer than the punk teenage girl who feels she is too good for her job.

ah! -A PUNK BECUASE SHE IS WHITE AND WORKING CLASS (yes working class, -upper middle class youth usually do not work at MacDonald's)! Nice! -Nicer to whom I might ask??!! Could that just depend on the person and maybe your "experience" may not necessarily be typical?

There is also a lot of bigotry and false steriotyping/over generalization against working class U.S. born americans, including whites. (which I think you may have just demonstrated some of). -Emil.

[pynkpanther]

Originally Posted by bigtallredhead

MLK became more confrontational with his beliefs yes, but emphasized more unity and a broader movement then just fighting against racism against blacks. He saw that the harm from racism would not be undone without addressing larger issues of human hierarchy and unfairness. I would hardly call that a pre Mecca Malcolm aproch, which was openly racist against whites. Not the same at all. -Emil.

mlk was always broad in his movement, but became less in the end after realizing that black people should be eye for an eye rather than turning the other cheek. he realized that no matter how sweeping he could be with his "all get along" teachings, black people were still getting mistreated and slaughtered by white people and they must protect themselves as well as set some examples of some likely repercussions. malcolm x did the same thing but in reverse.

i would absolutely love to elaborate, but i'd hate to get too off-topic.

[cxray]

Originally Posted by Arizona Annie

Oh cxray! Say it isn't so!!! Don't tell me you are one of THEM!!! A West Valley hater???!!! Calling us white trash/Rednecks??? I just don't know what to say. You have effectively rendered me speechless.....for the moment.

I have mixed feelings regardings your comments. I lived in the west valley for 5 years. I really wanted to like it. I'm a guy that roots for the underdog but I saw so much backward crap living there that it is difficult for me not to stereotype it. I remember the fast food people would give my wife a hard time because she ordered a cheeseburger without meat. That has never happened to my wife here in the east valley. Also, the drivers on the west side can be scary with their big monster trucks driving 70 down Bell.

I was in Aribba Mexican restaurant in Bell and the 101 (Arrowhead). This redneck got up and slammed his fists on our table because some of us were using the F word too loudly. Granted, we were wrong for cursing(it was my idiot friend who lacks an inner voice). Nonetheless, he could have asked us nicely instead of pounding his fists on our table and calling us F%$%$#sticks. Sorry but that is so West Side!

I owe you an apology. I know stereotyping is wrong. I met some great people in the west valley; I'm sure you are one of them. At the same time, I wish people in the west valley would take some responsibility for their backward elements instead of denying it all the time. I know you guys think people rip on the west side out of spite but there is some truth to a lot of the jokes about the west side. Watch the news and a lot of that happens near Glendale. My car insurance dropped 200 bucks a year for simply moving back to the east valley due to the car theft up there; and I lived in Arrowhead

[TurcoLoco]

Originally Posted by Arizona Annie

Oh cxray! Say it isn't so!!! Don't tell me you are one of THEM!!! A West Valley hater???!!! Calling us white trash/Rednecks??? I just don't know what to say. You have effectively rendered me speechless.....for the moment.

<<< Insert The Jeffersons TV Show Theme Song Here!!! >>>

[pynkpanther]

Originally Posted by bigtallredhead

The...black U.S. working class who feel economically and culturally threatened by mass immigration are the most likely to dislike mexicans.

this is a fable that needs to be discarded immediately. mass immigration poses no threat to black working class.

[pynkpanther]

Originally Posted by bigtallredhead

Personally, I do not hire a Mexican gardener or housecleaner nor do most americans, actualy. I do the work myself, and have also hired housecleaners who were not immigrants.

and how do you feel about canadians coming across the border to work in america while taking the $$$ back to their country? huge issue, but most americans couldn't care less about them doing that. would you not hire a canadian?