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you people act like you're rights are the only ones that matter, that everyone else rights and beliefs can be dismissed...
And that's the best argument against people who want these books banned...
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yeah, teens have a firm grasp and handle on sex.....really?
Of course not! But they still do it, whether or not a certain book is allowed in a school library... and despite what some people here think, books don't make people do things they're not already planning to do. Education about safer sex, whether it's between a man & woman or a same-sex couple, is the only thing we can really do to protect them in the long-run.
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can you tell my what literature and academic value this has?...
Does it matter? Plenty of people read books for entertainment value alone, and what wrong with that? I don't see the literary and academic value in Twilight or Sweet Valley High (in my day), but nobody gets their panties in a wad over teens reading those! Most schools carry these titles, and students have written papers on even less "academically valuable" works over the years. I've also had people question why we carry comics in libraries, and again - who cares? They enjoy reading them, as do I, and that's a good enough reason to make them available to the public.
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get over yourselves, some people just find this unnecessary..
So don't read it, and don't buy it (or check it out) for your children... simple solution.
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,878,581 times
Reputation: 886
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
Oh, so you speak for EVERY parent and teen in the US? Because I was raised to believe it IS normal and acceptable, and for you to disregard my parent's (and my) beliefs is incredibly self-righteous and pretentious... just because you have narrow-minded views about life, that doesn't give you the right to dictate what others should think & feel. Keep spending your money on private schools, better yet I suggest you start homeschooling them - as I went to private schools my whole life, and we were taught to accept & respect people of all sexual orientations there. We even had a few openly gay teachers, if you can imagine that!
Why is it self-righteous and pretentious to disregard you and your parents beliefs? You obviously disregard my parents and my beliefs. Which is your right, no skin off my nose, just wonder why it offends you or you somehow think you are morally superior when engaging in the same practice.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
Here's the "disconnect" - poison for the mind is an extremely subjective idea, whereas poison for the body is scientifically succinct (and provable).
Reasonable point however I would present the idea that poisonous ideologies are more harmful than physical poisons. Arsenic may end the life of the individual, yet poisonous ideologies (poison for the mind) can lead to the destruction of groups, societies and nations.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
I'm guessing your mind was poisoned by backwards-thinking conservative religious dogma, and you probably think mine was poisoned by liberal debauchery and heathenism... so who is right and who is wrong? Hard to say, but if I slipped arsenic in your coffee I think we'd know you were harmed.
Yea, probably. So the answer is to keep the Fed out of it, otherwise one or the other will be oppressed.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
Because if they're gay they're gay, and no amount of religious/conservative drivel will change that simple fact. So if there's any chance my child might be gay, I don't want them feeling ashamed, embarrassed, suicidal, or alone in this world. I want them to know their feelings are natural, and that at least I am okay with it... I also want them to be comfortable talking with me, asking me for advice, and turning to me for support when times are rough. If they get bullied at school or discriminated against in public, I want them to at least find solace in knowing their mother (and hopefully father) is still there for them. Is that a good enough reason?
Science as you allude to above does not provide empirical data to support your premise that if they are gay they're gay. This is also subjective.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
And if they aren't gay, I will have raised a child who doesn't judge others unfairly, and would never be a homophobic bully to those who are. That's how my parents raised the three of us, and we are all heterosexual but very accepting of differences... my brother's a macho baseball player/coach with a gorgeous long-term girlfriend, and his best friend in the world is a gay man. That is very cool, IMO.
Why don't we let them be children and work these issues out for themselves without subjecting them to the pressures of labels?
Not only physiologically as their bodies including their brains are still growing and changing, but emotionally as well. They also lack practical experience which is part of the process of maturation. Even our laws acknowledge this although that is changing and parental authority, or our ability to protect and guide our children is constantly being eroded by the state.
Your statement about children 15 - 17 playing in the sandbox or watching Sesame Street says more about your lack of maturity than it does about teenagers. I also think it is interesting that in the next sentence you allude to children entering puberty which in some cases starts as young as 9 or 10 - so what is the age range of the people you consider - not children? Teenagers or anyone entering puberty?
My lack of maturity? So it's immature to recognize that youth are also dealing with grown-up issues & feelings, and to not treat them like babies? I know that puberty can start young, which is why I said dealing with puberty AND sexual awareness... all of which can happen at varying ages, depending on the person. That's why you can't pinpoint a specific number, and say "okay, now you're an adult!" I think parents and teachers know about adolescent development, and trust them to make the determination when each child/teen is ready for different things. I'm not a parent yet, but I imagine I'll know when my children are ready to learn about certain subjects.
P.S. I think you misunderstood my "Sesame Street & sandboxes" comment... I was describing things a toddler does, as some people here think teenagers are still that immature.
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But back to your statement, do you propose that somehow there is a jump between the Sandbox and the maturity of responsibly managing a job, finances, family and other adult responsibilities that come with these tasks with no intermediate steps?
No... where did I imply that? I said that teens aren't CHILDREN, and most of them are dealing with BECOMING adult in their behaviors. To completely shield them from everything "adult" until a specific age is silly, and will only lead to them finding answers elsewhere - usually their peers (yikes!) or the Internet. I'm not saying all teens are ready to read adult-oriented books, but if they choose to read such a book, I highly doubt it will instantaneously corrupt them.
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This lack of maturity in chronological adults and assumption of maturity in children starts us down a dangerous path the gay community desperately want to publicly distance themselves from.
If teenagers aren't children, what are they then? The opposite of children are adults.
If they are adults then shouldn't they be able to make adult decisions, especially concerning themselves and their own bodies?
If they can make adult decisions about themselves and their own bodies, shouldn't they be able to interact with other adults regarding these issues?
I'm sure NAMBLA would welcome you with this reasoning.
How dare you even say such a thing, you reprehensible....... have to stop there, or I'll get an infraction. I'm a woman, btw, so it would be impossible for me to even engage in "man-boy love."
I'm sorry if the truth is disturbing to you, and also that you've apparently forgotten what it's like to be a teenager. I was a teenager once, and remember quite well how my mind worked... it was immature in reasoning and logic, but fully mature in knowing my preferences & mostly ignoring parental advice (although I stored it for later). Some of my friends' parents were REALLY strict, and it didn't stop them from getting into trouble - more trouble than me, generally, since mine were cool enough to where I could be pretty honest. One of my friends ended up with two STDs and FOUR unwanted pregnancies (turned abortions) as a teen, and her parents were the most strict of any. So what do you do as a parent? Not sure there's a good answer, but at least I'll be realistic in approaching their needs as they develop.
But in the end, we're talking about BOOKS here - and regardless of when or how you believe children & teens mature, I think a book is the last thing we should be condemning. And with the Internet these days, don't you realize they can find whatever they want in terms of reading material? Scary, I know, but again it's just the simple truth. Do what you want with your own kids, in terms of controlling their access to books/internet, but please butt out when it comes to how other people raise theirs.
And that's the best argument against people who want these books banned...
yes, that was in response to many here that feel as if gay rights on the only ones that matter...that everyone else beliefs can be ignored and dismissed...otherwise your a hateful bigot or something..
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Of course not! But they still do it, whether or not a certain book is allowed in a school library... and despite what some people here think, books don't make people do things they're not already planning to do. Education about safer sex, whether it's between a man & woman or a same-sex couple, is the only thing we can really do to protect them in the long-run.
no one thinks this book is going to force anyone to do anything...just that some parents don't want their kids expose to this...they know a movie isn't going to force their kids to do anything...doesn't mean they are going to plot the kids in front a porn or something...
and I am sorry, but I have doubts that the generation of lady gaga, facebook, texting, MTV and such can fully understand and handle sex..they can barely handle stuff outside of sex...
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Does it matter? Plenty of people read books for entertainment value alone, and what wrong with that? I don't see the literary and academic value in Twilight or Sweet Valley High (in my day), but nobody gets their panties in a wad over teens reading those! Most schools carry these titles, and students have written papers on even less "academically valuable" works over the years. I've also had people question why we carry comics in libraries, and again - who cares? They enjoy reading them, as do I, and that's a good enough reason to make them available to the public.
I'm not the one saying this has academic value..it those who defend this saying it does, that it would bring about "thought-provoking" discussions and such...its up to them to prove it...you should try to pay better attention before jumping in like that...
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So don't read it, and don't buy it (or check it out) for your children... simple solution.
that is what most of us try to do when we encounter something we don't like....we try to avoid it..but gays are not having that...their views must be imposed...they must get in your face...like I said, if you simply try to ignore them they get even more rabid and scream "homophobic bigot, you think gay sex is nasty? you prude"....
Why is it self-righteous and pretentious to disregard you and your parents beliefs? You obviously disregard my parents and my beliefs. Which is your right, no skin off my nose, just wonder why it offends you or you somehow think you are morally superior when engaging in the same practice.
I never disregarded your beliefs, in fact I said "who knows who is right?" I only detest institutional/governmental morality police, which is what many people here are supporting. I don't give a rat's patooty about your beliefs or how you raise your children, as long as you're not taking away my rights in the process... and by supporting the banning of books (which I'm not saying you specifically do), that is a clear imposition on the rights of people who want to read them.
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Reasonable point however I would present the idea that poisonous ideologies are more harmful than physical poisons. Arsenic may end the life of the individual, yet poisonous ideologies (poison for the mind) can lead to the destruction of groups, societies and nations.
Absolutely - but again, which specific ideologies can be defined as POISON? That's where we find the difference between arsenic and mental ideologies, as no two people will agree on the latter. I think fundamentalist religions are poisoning, but still support their right to exist... I'm even okay with religions being taught in schools, provided a variety of beliefs & interpretations are concurrently presented.
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Yea, probably. So the answer is to keep the Fed out of it, otherwise one or the other will be oppressed.
This is where I actually agree with you.
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Science as you allude to above does not provide empirical data to support your premise that if they are gay they're gay. This is also subjective.
Not really, unless you consider many years of psychological, sociological, and biological studies to be subjective. I also have the proof of knowing gay people since childhood, and watching the progress of their coming to terms with it... and the lack of any external influences being able to push them one way or another. Might not be as provable as an XRay or blood test, but it's far more convincing than "it's wrong because I say so, and/or the Bible told me so."
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Why don't we let them be children and work these issues out for themselves without subjecting them to the pressures of labels?
Oh yeah, that's a great idea... or better yet, let them ask their friends or look it up on the Internet! Sorry, but I personally think it's better to have open, honest, and factual conversations with them from a young age. What age is up to the parent and child, but simply "letting them work it out themselves" is a recipe for disaster. There's no need to push or label anything that doesn't seem necessary, just to be available and open to discussion. And if you think gay/bi teens won't have these feelings, simply because you avoid discussing or condoning it, you are sorely mistaken. I know plenty of gay folks who grew up in conservative (usually Christian) households, and they still managed to figure it out somehow.
My parents never sat me down and said gay is okay, they just showed me through their actions & behaviors that nobody deserves to be shamed/chastised for their sexuality, race, etc. They showed me by having a diverse group of friends, correcting us if we were insensitive, and never judging people unfairly. They also made it clear we could talk to them about anything, and we knew they'd still love us no matter what... is that such a bad way to raise a child? I don't think so.
yes, that was in response to many here that feel as if gay rights on the only ones that matter...that everyone else beliefs can be ignored and dismissed...otherwise your a hateful bigot or something..
This particular debate isn't about "gay rights," it's about whether or not books of a controversial nature should be made available to teens... there are no special rights needed to publish & distribute a gay-themed book, especially considering a large percentage of readers will be heterosexual. I've read many of them myself, and I'm totally straight! Books are for entertainment and/or education, and just because the author's protagonist is gay, that doesn't make this a gay rights issue - it's merely an issue of freedom from censorship.
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no one thinks this book is going to force anyone to do anything...just that some parents don't want their kids expose to this...they know a movie isn't going to force their kids to do anything...doesn't mean they are going to plot the kids in front a porn or something...
I'm sorry, were the kids sat down and MADE to read these books? Were they even required reading, or just one among a list of summer reading books to choose from? I've asked that second question without being answered, so I'm going to assume it's not required for the students - as very few titles are, at least in terms of the summer lists.
Even if it were part of the regular curriculum, parents still have the right to insist their child not read anything they find objectionable... might cause them to fall behind on that assignment, but no student will be FORCED to do anything against their parents' will. I remember when our 10th grade English teacher showed Romeo & Juliet (the original version) in class one day, which does have a brief nude scene, and one or two students were excused before it started. I assume those parents objected when the movie was announced, and the school had no problem in allowing their kids to skip the viewing.
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and I am sorry, but I have doubts that the generation of lady gaga, facebook, texting, MTV and such can fully understand and handle sex..they can barely handle stuff outside of sex...
True dat, LOL. But again, avoiding the issue altogether doesn't make it disappear... it just forces them to learn on their own, which can have some dangerous outcomes.
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I'm not the one saying this has academic value..it those who defend this saying it does, that it would bring about "thought-provoking" discussions and such...its up to them to prove it...you should try to pay better attention before jumping in like that...
Yes, the burden of proof would lie on them - and forgive me for any confusion, but this IS a 28-page thread. But you did ask "what is the academic value," to which I will again answer "why does it matter?"
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that is what most of us try to do when we encounter something we don't like....we try to avoid it..but gays are not having that...their views must be imposed...they must get in your face...like I said, if you simply try to ignore them they get even more rabid and scream "homophobic bigot, you think gay sex is nasty? you prude"....
I personally don't jump to that, although I also don't see how they're "getting in your face" by opposing the suppression of gay-themed materials. And fyi, it's not just the gay community, it's also straight people (like me) who oppose censorship of this type. I don't care if you think gay sex is nasty, as long as that opinion doesn't impose on the rights of others.
So far in "Norwegian Wood" the sex is anything but enticingly depicted (same for the suicide). Rather, the protagonist realizes the hollow meaninglessness of the sex he has. It's quite a bittersweet book with a prevailing sense of emptiness, so far.
Sounds rather interesting. I'll check for these books at work tomorrow, and see if I can start reading them too... first I have to finish my current book, though, as I was supposed to submit a review to the paper last week. Almost done, only about 40 pages to go!
Edit: I just searched our online catalog, and Tweak is currently checked out - so I placed a hold for when it's returned. We don't carry Norweigan Wood, so maybe I'll add it to my next book order (if reviews show it's good for our collection).
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As far as "too many suicides" goes, that would rule out Shakespeare. No Hamlet. And murders galore! Bowdler tried sanitizing Shakespeare ages ago, but the real works are taught in high school.
Shakespeare is chock-full of suicide, teen sex, murder, war, witchcraft, racism, anti-Semitism, and so much more fun stuff... and yet his books are widely touted as the ultimate classics, and are standard reading in ANY high school. Personally I love his writings (Othello being my favorite), but it's rather ironic how parents never seem to protest them.
If teenagers aren't children, what are they then? The opposite of children are adults.
They aren't adults OR children...hence the word TEENAGER. It's in between, changing from on to the other, all that good stuff. It's never "child today...adult tomorrow". This is one of the silliest comments I've seen and I've seen a lot. Congrats on that.
Count me among those who think worrying about a book on a reading list is silly considering what's available on the internet and from their peers. The possibility of your teen CHOOSING TO and PURPOSELY reading a book that they are curious about is really a non issue. By the time they want to you have lost that control.
So did subscription magazines at the school library you were employed at include any of the following?
Hustler
Playboy
Playgirl
Ball club quarterly
On our backs
Buttman
Screw
Barely legal
Not that I'm aware of, and probably because they are restricted adult content with PHOTOS (I assume, although I'm not familiar with most of those titles)... whereas a piece of written literature cannot be restricted, in terms of distribution to minors. So it's mostly a legal issue, if nothing else. And if you think Playboy and Barely Legal are the same as a teen novel, I wonder if you've ever picked up a book in your life. Besides, I wasn't aware that we were discussing magazines.
P.S. One public library I worked at had a Playboy subscription, and they were rather popular... not sure how we handled the age restriction, as I never worked in circulation there.
Last edited by gizmo980; 08-25-2011 at 04:07 AM..
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That's how my parents raised the three of us, and we are all heterosexual but very accepting of differences... my brother's a macho baseball player/coach with a gorgeous long-term girlfriend, and his best friend in the world is a gay man. That is very cool, IMO.
Almost done, only about 40 pages to go!
