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Immoral people have attained positions that enable them to indoctrinate our children with their depraved thinking in order to "legitimize" their own immorality. It's up to responsible parents to keep them from succeeding. Drive them out of positions of authority and decision making. There is a war going on for the soul of America.
Yes, those church leaders are abominations aren't they?
Not only physiologically as their bodies including their brains are still growing and changing, but emotionally as well. They also lack practical experience which is part of the process of maturation. Even our laws acknowledge this although that is changing and parental authority, or our ability to protect and guide our children is constantly being eroded by the state.
Your statement about children 15 - 17 playing in the sandbox or watching Sesame Street says more about your lack of maturity than it does about teenagers. I also think it is interesting that in the next sentence you allude to children entering puberty which in some cases starts as young as 9 or 10 - so what is the age range of the people you consider - not children? Teenagers or anyone entering puberty?
But back to your statement, do you propose that somehow there is a jump between the Sandbox and the maturity of responsibly managing a job, finances, family and other adult responsibilities that come with these tasks with no intermediate steps?
I do agree that teenagers know what they like and what they want, which is also a sign of their immaturity. What we like and want is not necessarily what is best for us and often must be weighed against the cost of acquiring it (not necessarily monetary) which is a characteristic of maturity. I'm glad you state this though, because this short sighted infantile and hedonistic reasoning is exactly the type of immaturity that I believe characterizes a lot (not all) of 'gay' behavior and the idea that I am born this way (I believe) is used by many to justify an array of childish behavior and attitudes, not just sexual preference.
This lack of maturity in chronological adults and assumption of maturity in children starts us down a dangerous path the gay community desperately want to publicly distance themselves from.
If teenagers aren't children, what are they then? The opposite of children are adults.
If they are adults then shouldn't they be able to make adult decisions, especially concerning themselves and their own bodies?
If they can make adult decisions about themselves and their own bodies, shouldn't they be able to interact with other adults regarding these issues?
I'm sure NAMBLA would welcome you with this reasoning.
It seems to me this attitude you express, "that teenagers(children) are adults" is prevalent among the gay and gay supportive community consciously or even more dangerously sub-consciously as Manboy (Strel) exemplefies in his attack against my child - he doesn't like what I say, perhaps he doesn't like me so he attacks my child (calls her stupid). He must consider her (a child) fair game for an adult (himself) to rather visciously attack. I think a mature and adult attitude tends to shy away from attacking children, yet those who exemplify your reasoning "that teenagers(children) are adults" must see them as fair game for manipulative and predatory practices.
As for me, I believe we need to protect our children and allow them the time to truly mature and gain experience before we expect them to interact with adults on equal footing.
jmho . . .
And the NAMBLA RAMBLER award goes to.... (for the first person to use NAMBLA in a thread)
Perhaps instead of referring to a virtually defunct (other than in the minds and websites of the gay obsessed) hebephile group, you could call attention to all the purpetrators of child molestation in the US. The vast majority who are heterosexual in their adult attractions.
Oh, so you speak for EVERY parent and teen in the US? Because I was raised to believe it IS normal and acceptable, and for you to disregard my parent's (and my) beliefs is incredibly self-righteous and pretentious... just because you have narrow-minded views about life, that doesn't give you the right to dictate what others should think & feel. Keep spending your money on private schools, better yet I suggest you start homeschooling them - as I went to private schools my whole life, and we were taught to accept & respect people of all sexual orientations there. We even had a few openly gay teachers, if you can imagine that!
Here's the "disconnect" - poison for the mind is an extremely subjective idea, whereas poison for the body is scientifically succinct (and provable). I'm guessing your mind was poisoned by backwards-thinking conservative religious dogma, and you probably think mine was poisoned by liberal debauchery and heathenism... so who is right and who is wrong? Hard to say, but if I slipped arsenic in your coffee I think we'd know you were harmed.
Because if they're gay they're gay, and no amount of religious/conservative drivel will change that simple fact. So if there's any chance my child might be gay, I don't want them feeling ashamed, embarrassed, suicidal, or alone in this world. I want them to know their feelings are natural, and that at least I am okay with it... I also want them to be comfortable talking with me, asking me for advice, and turning to me for support when times are rough. If they get bullied at school or discriminated against in public, I want them to at least find solace in knowing their mother (and hopefully father) is still there for them. Is that a good enough reason?
And if they aren't gay, I will have raised a child who doesn't judge others unfairly, and would never be a homophobic bully to those who are. That's how my parents raised the three of us, and we are all heterosexual but very accepting of differences... my brother's a macho baseball player/coach with a gorgeous long-term girlfriend, and his best friend in the world is a gay man. That is very cool, IMO.
"Most of us can remember many of the books on the assigned reading list in middle and high school — from Charles Dickens’ “Great Expectations†to Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s “Crime and Punishment.†Today, however, required reading for students apparently includes “Tweak: Growing up on Methamphetamines,†a book that features a scene depicting a homosexual orgy and “Norwegian Wood,†a book that features a sex scene between a 31-year-old woman and a 13-year old girl."
There was a time I wouldn't have believed this type of reading material was available in a public school library, let alone recommended or even required for not only high schoolers but middle schoolers as well. But, that was before my 10 year old dd entered middle school in 5th grade in a new district. Then, I saw the type of books being recommended and/or required by her teachers and I started doing some research and discovered books in the school library that contained the type of material described in this story. I doubt that many parents realize what is being pushed on their children in the guise of "literature" in our local bookstores, public libraries and even in our schools. Many of these books come packaged in cute little pink covers. And for those that say even the classics or the Bible have references to sex and profanity, I have read both types of books and there is a glaring difference. One may have references; the other graphic depictions with little or no moral consequences.
"This stunning and elegiac novel by the author of the internationally acclaimed Wind-Up Bird Chronicle has sold over 4 million copies in Japan and is now available to American audiences for the first time. It is sure to be a literary event.
Toru, a quiet and preternaturally serious young college student in Tokyo, is devoted to Naoko, a beautiful and introspective young woman, but their mutual passion is marked by the tragic death of their best friend years before. Toru begins to adapt to campus life and the loneliness and isolation he faces there, but Naoko finds the pressures and responsibilities of life unbearable. As she retreats further into her own world, Toru finds himself reaching out to others and drawn to a fiercely independent and sexually liberated young woman.
A poignant story of one college student's romantic coming-of-age, Norwegian Wood takes us to that distant place of a young man's first, hopeless, and heroic love."
Okay. Now I'm definitely buying this book.
... In fact, Amazon just gave me free overnight shipping on it. I'll start tomorrow! Phantasy Tokoro, you can read it when I'm done.
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Originally Posted by EricGold
I can't argue with you on what good books are...if you find stuff like this good, then hey, more power to you...I on the other hand read stuff on the fantastical, magical, sci-fi, historical, worldly matters..if you find bizarre sex acts good reading, then hey, that is your thing.
See. Here's the thing. The books in question are not about "bizarre sex acts". And you reaaaallly can't critique whether or not a book is a good read until you.... actually read it.
So, I implore you, and anyone else, who is rallying against these books to rent them from the library and read them.
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this is what I have been talking about...the taking crap and wrapping it with "intellectualism"....sorry, masturbating live in a class full of college kids has no academic value...why not watch it on video?...so they can freeze it and actually study the emotion on their faces?....
It's a class on human sexuality and how it affects and is affected by the human pyche. Until I see the reason for the reciprocating ***** saw, I can't make a determination on whether it was appropriate or not.
I'm assuming since most of the class is defending the teacher, that it had merit.
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like I said, if we placed this much importance on math, science, and history, this country would be unstoppable..
Correlation does not imply causation.
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I just double checked the link...it does contain a lesson and tools on fisting
I checked the source of the link.
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...what the hell do you think the glove is for?
Making a dental dam to prevent the spread of STD's.
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there is something wrong when you only want normal healthy sex (even gay sex) that you don't want to be bothered with fisting, p*ssing, and swallowing, somehow makes you a prude with hang ups about sex....
What exactly is "normal, healthy sex"? Missionary position only?
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they never denied a gay couple from renting a room before...they had to draw the line when it came to the rep hall and their religious views...besides, the law said that they couldn't be denied accommodations...it doesn't say they had to provided any and all accommodations.....they could still rent a room or whatever...
According to Vermont, the owners... well, the director that denied the dining hall, committed unlawful discrimination. In fact, that person is no longer employed by the inn. See here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44243376/ns/travel-news/t/vt-inn-denies-discriminating-against-ny-lesbians/#.TlZQsai4IRg - broken link). In fact, the person who said "lol no lesbians!" was not even in a position to make the decision.
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a restaurant made news for banning kids and some theaters ban kids after a certain hour....I don't recall anyone suing anyone demanding to be able to take their kids anywhere they please...most people realize that you can't always get your way...that they can't drag their kids anywhere
For the most part, discrimination against kids is not illegal. Heck, in my metro area, children under 18 are subject to curfew and have been banned from a mall after a certain time (unless they have a job at the mall).
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...but homosexuals act like they have a right to go anywhere
... Woah.
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and do anything
Anything legal.
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even with other people's private property....equality my ass..
In the Vermont case, it's not private property, but a public accommodation with an appropriate business license.
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for the last time, you people aren't the only ones with rights..
However, protections from discrimination (where applicable) by law... do apply.
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you're ok with a small family business taking a hit just cause you people couldn't get your way?
Last I checked, Vermont had laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation. If a business is willing to ignore the law, they'll take a hit. BUT as the link above tells, the family themselves had nothing to do with what happened and didn't even realize what was going on - that their hired hand was speaking on their behalf... without permission.
And thus, the hired hand no longer works there.
Which means... The owners know that what the Director did was wrong.
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...are you listening to yourself?...this has gone well beyond mere acceptance and into a almost militant, fanatical effort to destroy any disagreement in its entirety, no matter how minor, against homosexuals and force compliance....simply saying "no" warrants an effort to be destroyed by you people....but of course everyone else must be "tolerant"..
Am I reading this correctly that you support and condone a person to illegally discriminate against homosexuals?
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you're not even denying my charges...you're embracing them..."you damn right we are out to destroy anyone who doesn't give into our every demand and gladly impose our beliefs onto others".....don't we have a problem when religious people do this?
Read the link with updated information. Even the owners agree that what was said to the lesbian couple (and other homosexual couples) was wrong.
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you people act like you're rights are the only ones that matter, that everyone else rights and beliefs can be dismissed...
Last I checked, illegal discrimination is illegal.
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jeez, wanting to keep your kids from reading about drug-induced gay orgies when they have no academic value to begin with, or any relevance means they have sick prudish morals?...
You simply can not say that these books have neither academic nor entertainment value. You've never read them.
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umm, having good academics and grades doesn't automatically mean you are mature..."ahh f*ck it, sure go out with that stranger and come back anytime you feel like it, its cool, you're in an honours class"...very logical..
Except that an honours student would realize how idiotic of a decision it would be to do such a thing.
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so why are many here claiming teens, of all people are so mature and developed as to handle anything?
Because we used to be teenagers.
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yeah, teens have a firm grasp and handle on sex.....really?
Well, I had a firm grasp on something when I was 15. It just so happened that I married him years down the road... and am still married to him.
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and why is that?...can you tell my what literature and academic value this has?...
If you can give me till Sunday, then yes.
Last edited by gallowsCalibrator; 08-25-2011 at 09:45 AM..
Yet you're trying to decide for every parent that books and topics on issues listed in the thread title should be made available to children despite the values of the parents/families involved? So this is he-said-she-said. Who's right? It seems your belief in deciding what should be presented to my child, in contradiction to my values as a parent, is what is incredibly self-righteous and pretentious, and characterizing those values as "narrow-minded" is arrogance I have seldom seen, even in these forums. I'm not attempting to dictate what others should feel - you're entitled to your beliefs no matter how wrong I may feel that they are, but will not stand by while those of your ilk attempt to push your world view into the mind of my impressionable child. I feel homosexuality is wrong in any and all cases, and really could not care less if children who may believe they are leaning that way or who choose to act on such inclinations feel "ashamed, embarrassed, suicidal, or alone in this world". I stand by the belief that such behaviors indicate a mental/moral illness and if anything would advocate counseling and proper help for such individuals rather than encouraging more glitter and unicorn behavior and calling it "normal". Tolerance is required, acceptance is not. The whole "It Gets Better" campaign is a joke. Homosexuality's removal from the DSM in 1973 is the result of a political agenda, nothing more. But that deletion is a fact. It does not mean that values within my family change as a result of political winds.
Homeschooling is not an option for us. I'm thankful I have the means to send my child to a private school. On the occasion where I have disagreed philosophically with what is being taught, I have spoken to the teacher and made clear my position. An example was where my daughter came home and said to me in a whisper "Gun is a bad word, Daddy!" I explained that a gun is not bad, it is simply a tool like a hammer or screwdriver you need to accomplish a certain job. If a wheel on her bike is wobbly, I use a wrench to tighten it. If someone breaks into our home to steal or harm us, I will use a gun to stop them by shooting them. You may disagree with me teaching my child this (I just used it as an example), but my house - my family - my child - my values - my choice. Not yours.
Subjective? The perhaps the Nazi ideology and resulting movement which killed millions was "just a bad choice" but that judgement is subjective, right? Islam, which advocates the killing of infidels, is subjectively just a bad thing, but then I'm passing my own judgement with no objectivity? (Tell that to the thousands who died on 9/11 and those who continue to die every single day as a result of it.) After all, do we know anyone is/was harmed by either of these idealogies or perhaps that's all subjective too?
You dare to call my beliefs backward and would object to my characterization of yours as destructive, while your attempt to spread yours through our schools, our society, and given the chance, directly into the mind of my child should she be made available through your school or library? For the record, yes, I went to private school through elementary, high school, (no, there were no openly-homosexual students or teachers in my HS, although we did suspect a few of the more-effeminate guys were) and even a private university (no religious affiliation) to the post-graduate level. And I owe no allegiance to any particular religious dogma and in fact eschew most as noting more than people's own choice of which mythology to follow.
I agree on the religious part and don't believe any stories about invisible friends in the sky will have a real impact. However, I also don't believe it is the responsibility of society as a whole to "remedy" through normalization the behavior-based character flaws so a group of outcasts feels better about their choices. Life's not fair, get used to it. Life's rough, deal it. Choices and actions have consequences, and no one is obligated to accomodate your weird needs to prance around acting like you were born something you're not. Natural laws have no pity, and compassion is best saved for those who deserve it, not those who bring about their own misfortune through bad choices.
That's your family/personal choice. Same with your brother. I don't agree but would defend your/his right to make such decisions on who/what to have interact with your children. All I would ask is the same respect in return without such vehement villification of my choices, including not seeking opportunities to infect the minds of children of parents whose values differ from yours. You call it "progressive", some of us take a different view.
If through some cosmic injustice my child were to choose to follow such a lifestyle, I would still love her. I'd miss her, but I'd still love her. I work every day towards teaching her how to make good choices.
I tried to find some semblance of fact in this homophobic rant. I couldn't.
But hey! You are certainly entitled to express your fact-free opinions.
Sshhhhh! You are ruining the rant what with your facts and logic. Pffft!
It's really bizarre....
I hope the posters who are reading the book gets back to us. I'm guessing the whole "gay" content in these books is a few sentences buried amongst all the straight stuff.
I've said that such people should receive counseling and proper help rather than encouragement to continue an unrealistic lifestyle. That is a practical answer, much more practical than worrying about their hurt feelings and willingness to sacrifice society so they feel good about what they are.
Tell ya' what - you worry about your kids and I'll take care of mine. These same kids can settle it on the playground, later at the ballot box or in the Boardroom.
Over-worrying about feelings is what is turning our society into a land of sissies - let's get rid of dodgeball, let's have games with no winners or losers, let's give everybody a participation prize, let's let those unable to pay loans buy a house so they feel enfranchised to the American Dream, etc.
"This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid!"
--- Jackie Brown (from "The Friends of Eddie Coyle" - often attributed to John Wayne in "The Sands of Iwo Jima")
"Pray away the gay" doesn't work and is harmful -to the person, the people they care about, and their wallets.
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,878,581 times
Reputation: 886
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
I never disregarded your beliefs, in fact I said "who knows who is right?" I only detest institutional/governmental morality police, which is what many people here are supporting. I don't give a rat's patooty about your beliefs or how you raise your children, as long as you're not taking away my rights in the process... and by supporting the banning of books (which I'm not saying you specifically do), that is a clear imposition on the rights of people who want to read them.
I appreciate your position and believe we are closer than we are farther apart. I absolutely respect your right to teach your children according to your beliefs be they religious, atheist, humanist etc.
I just want it acknowledged I have the right also to teach my children according to my beliefs even if they are opposed to yours. Doesn't mean I don't respect yours, just means mine may be different and I assert my right to teach my children according to these beliefs (they may also be similar to yours - I don't know)
I'm not in to banning books and do believe many teens are at an emotional and intellectual level of maturity to digest controversial topics. I am cautious about what books we make available at our public schools as this may allude to an endorsement which is not banning books, it is determining what is appropriate for specific venues.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
Absolutely - but again, which specific ideologies can be defined as POISON? That's where we find the difference between arsenic and mental ideologies, as no two people will agree on the latter. I think fundamentalist religions are poisoning, but still support their right to exist... I'm even okay with religions being taught in schools, provided a variety of beliefs & interpretations are concurrently presented.
Exactly.
I'm not a big supporter of the imposition of morality by legisltion whether that morality is from the religious right or the humanist left. Especially when we follow the thought process through to the point where we understand that any legislation carries with it the implication of violence to coerce compliance.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
This is where I actually agree with you.
????
On the religion issue we actually diverge. I am definitely not OK with teaching religion in public schools from PK-12. I am certainly ok with individuals unobtrusively observing their religious traditions in schools as long as it does not impose upon the rights, activities or environment of others (ie. i would not agree with anyone attempting to lead a religiously mixed group in christian prayer or the use of school facilities to broadcast muslim calls to prayer or set aside school resources for religious observances)
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
Not really, unless you consider many years of psychological, sociological, and biological studies to be subjective. I also have the proof of knowing gay people since childhood, and watching the progress of their coming to terms with it... and the lack of any external influences being able to push them one way or another. Might not be as provable as an XRay or blood test, but it's far more convincing than "it's wrong because I say so, and/or the Bible told me so."
I absolutely consider the soft sciences to be subjective although this is an entire topic in itself regarding the dilution of educational rigor to conform to capitalistic impulses such as getting published and access to grants and pushing biased social agendas.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
Oh yeah, that's a great idea... or better yet, let them ask their friends or look it up on the Internet! Sorry, but I personally think it's better to have open, honest, and factual conversations with them from a young age. What age is up to the parent and child, but simply "letting them work it out themselves" is a recipe for disaster.
I actually agree with you here. What I meant by work it out for themselves is not so much to deny emotional support as to not project your bias.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
There's no need to push or label anything that doesn't seem necessary, just to be available and open to discussion. And if you think gay/bi teens won't have these feelings, simply because you avoid discussing or condoning it, you are sorely mistaken. I know plenty of gay folks who grew up in conservative (usually Christian) households, and they still managed to figure it out somehow.
Okay, but I think we tend to label things based upon polar idea's of sexuality. I think many children tend to experiment amongst their peer groups including same gender as they become aware of sexual urges. I don't necessarily believe this means they are "gay" or "straight" but they are coming to terms with new feelings and physical responses. I believe many with agendas take advantage of youths to further political agendas or even worse agendas which border on criminal.
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Originally Posted by gizmo980
My parents never sat me down and said gay is okay, they just showed me through their actions & behaviors that nobody deserves to be shamed/chastised for their sexuality, race, etc. They showed me by having a diverse group of friends, correcting us if we were insensitive, and never judging people unfairly. They also made it clear we could talk to them about anything, and we knew they'd still love us no matter what... is that such a bad way to raise a child? I don't think so.
I believe being gay is a choice and a poor choice. I teach my children this. This does not mean I teach my children to shame or chastise others for their choices as that is not their role. These are my opinions, no more no less.
I do however believe that anything people put out in the public square is open for debate which is why I express opinions on homosexuality. I have also been criticized for making satirical comments about certain GOP candidates religious views - however, they put it out there on the public forum as part of their campaign, so again - I believe it is fair game.
I don't know how reading about drug-induced orgies, whether they be straight or gay helps "critical thinking skills"...
I don't know how not knowing or wanting to read this stuff makes you "undereducated"?......
Reducing the whole of the novel to just some incidental sex scenes is ignorant.
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if we placed this much emphasis on math, science and history as we do about "sex exploration" or whatever this is...we would be unstoppable..
You just demonstrated my point above. These books are about lots of things, but the homophobic OP reduces their meaning to mere pornorgraphy.
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but it's kinda been said that liberals tend to get degrees in "philosophical meaning of hotdogs during medieval times" and other "liberal arts"...so of course they find stuff like this "educational"....and without it you're "ignorant"....and then wonder why they can't get a job....who the hell told you to major in 16th century art?.....(I was in highschool when my lab teacher told me his niece couldn't get a job, despite her having a degree in photographer)...you may not be as wealthy as that guy with a major in business and a minor in mathematics, but at least you're "smarter" then him...
I'm done with you, if this is all the insight you can provide into the topic.
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That's how my parents raised the three of us, and we are all heterosexual but very accepting of differences... my brother's a macho baseball player/coach with a gorgeous long-term girlfriend, and his best friend in the world is a gay man. That is very cool, IMO.
These same kids can settle it on the playground, later at the ballot box or in the Boardroom.
