"School Reading List Featured Books on Lesbian Sex,Gay Orgy" (unemployment, Congress)

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by coastalgirl

This thread has been an interesting ride. Two more books added to my Kindle today as well! Thanks for the excellent suggestions, maja!

Hahaha... I placed a hold on "Tweak" at my library, and added the other to my next book order list (pending a little more research). Great job, Maja!

Whenever a book is "challenged" publicly, it's a proven fact that its circulation & sales greatly increase - same goes for movies, like when "The Golden Compass" surged in profits once the thumpers started protesting it. Kinda backfires on them, huh? And as somebody else mentioned earlier, when you make something taboo the teens/kids in particular will only become MORE intrigued.

[boiseguy]

I wish there were books about gay sex and orgies when I was in middle school.. lucky little bastards!

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by boiseguy

I wish there were books about gay sex and orgies when I was in middle school.. lucky little bastards!

And yet, somehow you still managed to discover you were gay, and (I assume) eventually figured out the mechanics of it... weird, huh?!

[boiseguy]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

And yet, somehow you still managed to discover you were gay, and (I assume) eventually figured out the mechanics of it... weird, huh?!

I know.. I grew up reading the bible, book of mormon, as well as all the classics of literature in regards to schooling..I grew up with a slicked down little comb over hair cut , crisp white shirt and tie and always said sir and ma'am...
and I turned out to be a filthy homosexual that absolutely loves every minute of it.. because I'm ME! and not some conformity to society or what others thought I should be or what's upstanding and respectible in their eyes. I turned 17 got some courage and told everyone to go f themselves including my own parents and church people to an audience of 300 people. I walked out of that church building feeling like a million dollars and I haven't been back!

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by boiseguy

I know.. I grew up reading the bible, book of mormon, as well as all the classics of literature in regards to schooling..I grew up with a slicked down little comb over hair cut , crisp white shirt and tie and always said sir and ma'am...
and I turned out to be a filthy homosexual that absolutely loves every minute of it.. because I'm ME! and not some conformity to society or what others thought I should be or what's upstanding and respectible in their eyes. I turned 17 got some courage and told everyone to go f themselves including my own parents and church people to an audience of 300 people. I walked out of that church building feeling like a million dollars and I haven't been back!

You go, boiseguy!

No matter how hard they try to convince themselves it's possible, you simply can't "pray away the gay" - nor can you "raise kids to be straight," or shelter them enough to suppress natural feelings. FYI, there are many gay-friendly churches and temples around here... I doubt any of them are LDS, though.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by Workin_Hard

Again, I have no affiliation to any religion. It's all mythology IMO.

Now you're going to have to go to all the trouble of finding another attack vector...

No problem.

I can do secular as well. (Althought it's still religiously motivated. They just like to pretend it's not.)

So-called "reparative therapy" doesn't work. It harmful on the people and those they care about. It's also very harmful on the wallet.

[Strel]

Originally Posted by EricGold

whoa, relax...take a deep breath...you don't like your "intellectualism" challenged or something? "this guy must obviously have a mental defect for not recognizing how great I am"...LOL, ok...jeez..and I am sure you are super smart and super successful, just like everyone else on the internet....

What offends me is your hostility to intellectualism in general. To the degree I am successful, a large part is due to understanding the balance between the analog and the digital, the Dionysian and the Appolonian.

Let me put it in a pop culture context. Understanding the stuff you consider "fluffy" is the main reason I can pull Jedi mind tricks on people and get paid for it. Because I have a broad cultural education, I know how to push the subconcious buttons to influence people without them even knowing they are being influenced. It that isn't a useful skill, what is?

but no wonder you are taking such offense..you spent a great deal of time reading such materials thinking you were gaining great useful information...I too would be upset if someone told my all that stuff in my head isn't all that important..well maybe not "important"...just didn't affect much...sorry for that.....look, some medieval author you read about is sooo relevant and important..and the world can't function without people like you reading his stuff.....feel better?

I have significant education in BOTH areas. I've worn both hats. I have a strong science background rounded out with a strong liberal arts background. So I do understand your arguments, but I also see them as coming from only the side you understand and seem comfortable with.

I also can see that there's probably no way I can get you to understand why Chaucer is still relevant and important today.

ancient human civilization such as the Mayans and Egyptians made all kinds of advancements with astronomy, mathematics and structural engineering, constructed cities and pyramids that would be a challenge today even with our heavy machinery, in-fact we still have many questions as to how they were able to do it...they were quite advanced...did fine without any kind of need for "philosophical meaning of my toes" babble you seem to think is so dependent for human advancement...

Trivialize it all you like. If it didn't have value, it wouldn't still be studied. As Santayana said...oh forget it. You probably didn't read him either.

You seriously undervalue the importance of wisdom.

the fact that you think human imagination, exploration and advancements can't exist without some guy discussing the "philosophical meaning of this rock" is odd...we did just fine well before people like Shakespeare gain any notoriety...

\
Straw man argument. I never said a thing about how it couldn't exist.

and so Shakespeare has survived centuries and lead to some sitcoms, movies and remakes, spin off etc....would our advancements been hindered or slowed without such things?....

Once again, you missed the point. Slowed. What advancements could have been made if society hadn't changed during the Rennaisance and Enlightment to create the environment that permitted and promoted innovation? How can you not understand that the changes in philosophy lead to changes in politics and society which in turn made the Industrial Revolution possible?

Here's some recommended reading for you: The Day the Universe Changed, by James Burke. Burke can explain the connection you seem to think does not exist much more eloquently than I can.

you said that our careers would be hindered from not knowing such things...that we would be terrible "writers" and thus our careers would suffer...well, we are terrible writers...our penmanship is horrible

Egad. You really just don't get that there is far more to writing than PENMANSHIP. Thanks for proving my point for me.

.....look at how many ellipses I use here..but we are doing just fine...none of us are whining about the "evil rich" or feel as if we are "oppressed victims" or something....nice try on moving the goalpost you yourself set up...but its not going to cut it..

You could be doing better, but you seem keen on not seeing how.

I read this thread....the opposition was that it was just too graphic and inappropriate and can't find any academic value in it.....one sex scene was between a 13 year old and a 31 year old....is opposition to that pedophobic?

Everyone who is not a pedophile doesn't like pedophiles. The problem is that, like you, the OP reduces the whole work to just this sordid scene with no understanding of how it might be worked into the plot, or what meaning it was meant to convey, etc. This is what happens when people think too literally and too empirically, this is what happens when people don't think literature has value beyond it's trivial, literal meaning.

...get over it, not everyone is "homophobic" because he don't want to be bothered with it all the freaking time....you can't simply say "no" or deny a gay person something without it being "homophobic" get over it...grow up...

I never made that assertion. I asserted it was true of the OP only. Perhaps if you read more philosophy you'd be better at arguing without making straw man assertions.

and you pat yourself on the back from "reading..."

Damn right I do, and I'd pat anyone else on the back for reading them too, because they are important.

those books....good for you, I am sure you can talk about all kinds of things that are "interesting"....but have you read the works of Michio Kaku? or papers on Phi and how beautiful it is?...or have you ever tried wrapping you mind around hyper-spatial geometry?....or thesis on astronomy and the vastness of space-time?....do you routinely have discussions with physicist and astronomers on hyper-dimensional mathematics? ......and have a kick ass time doing it?..yeah, that isn't about "real numbers" with "real people".... yeah I am missing out alright, you and your people talking about 16th art and pink bunnies is where the real "interest" are....

I have a background in biochemistry, computer science, English literature and law. I use both sides of my brain. You don't seem to think that's a good idea.

Good luck with that.

math and science communities usually make advancements on hard data.....not on some restrictive view on "wisdom"....that you seem to think that others needed to be "persuade" into accepting scientific discoveries is odd....they look at the data, peer-review it and then its done...they're not sitting around wondering the "deeper meaning" of it...take String Theory, scientist are not shying away from it because the idea of parallel universes are too extreme...if the math is sound, its sound...no need to "peruse" anyone...its all about data...

Shockingly, I am familiar with the above, not that you bothered to ask. You just assumed. That was not wise. Now do you understand my point about wisdom vs. intelligence? Not everything is just about data. What a sad way to view the Universe.

and you keep spewing "wisdom" and "philosophy" as if you have the authority over it....

Not authority, appreciation.

[quote]and why is that?..because you read a bunch of centuries old books?...that makes you wise?[./quote]

Wiser than someone who doesn't. How can you not understand that it's not an either/or choice? How can you not understand that you are arguing in favor of willful ignorance?

...you read some 16th century book on Greek philosophy and all of a sudden you think you know what "wisdom" is?

Again, better than someone who DIDN'T read it.

...right...wisdom can come in many forms...sorry you feel as if its only limited to obscure archaic books

Sorry that you continue to make logically fallacious arguments by assuming that was what I said or meant. I never said it was limited to that. Perhaps if you were more wise and not so limited in your thinking, you wouldn't make such mistakes.

....some of us can seek wisdom out beyond such constraints...

The constraints are of your invention, not mine.

.we can "think critically" without relying on them so heavily....sorry you and others are so dependent on them.....that if students don't read crap like "Norwegian Wood"..their minds would be underdeveloped...really?...if you need crap like that for guidance on "wisdom"....well, that's just sad....

Your responses in this thread indicate otherwise.

really?...the Art of War?..if human civilization was to collapse the first thing you should worry about is survival....how the hell are military tactics and warfare going to help you?.....are you going to raise an army during total social chaos?..just throwing out random carp thinking you sounded "smart"?...

See? This is what I mean. You have no grasp of how a book like the Art of War can be applied beyond it's literal title. Once again, you've proven me right.

What the ballistics of large indeterministic fish have to do with this is not something I quite understand.

look, I am going to cut you some slack....that stuff does have interest...it is important..and they do give us important lessons from our history...I mean what are the ramifications for splicing human and animal DNA?...having some kind of ethical/moral and philosophical center is very important so that we don't destroy ourselves with our creations...but without engineers and mathematicians you people wouldn't have lecture halls to stand around in patting each other on the back about how "important" and "smart" you are..

Someone that uses both sides of their brian is always going to be relatively smarter than someone that does not.

At no point during this discussion did I devalue the importance of scientists, engineers, etc. Again, that's your assertion, not mine. I simply understand the value of writers, thinkers and artists, whereas you don't.

but to say people like Einstein and Shakespeare are both critical and vital to human advancement just doesn't cut it....we would have been fine without Romeo and Juliet ...where would we be without E=MC2?....it wouldn't surprise me how if you argued that the two are equally important......

No, I would argue that such a ratio is not quantifiable. But again, I'm having an argument with someone who views the world that way...

if I had a choice to take one book to a deserted island and it was between mechanical/structural engineering or Greek philosophy...I'd take the mechanical/structural engineering one...can't build a shelter and house with Greek philosophy...can you?...you know?, you would probably argue some "intellectual" babble that you can...it wouldn't surprise me..

Fortunately (or not) the real world has no relation to your extreme hypothetical. If we were all living on such hypothetical islands, you would have a point, and we would not be a civilization nor be terribly distinguishable from animals.

again...that stuff is important...but to say we can't get along without is absurd...again, it can be thought-provoking...it can be meaningful..and it is fun and interesting to talk about it....but when in a laboratory looking down a microscope trying to cure something or on a chalkboard trying to crack a quantum mechanical mathematical problem...it doesn't have much use....sorry....

I really do feel sorry for you, if the above describes the scope and breadth of your life. You are missing out, tragically.

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by Strel

What offends me is your hostility to intellectualism in general. To the degree I am successful, a large part is due to understanding the balance between the analog and the digital, the Dionysian and the Appolonian.

Let me put it in a pop culture context. Understanding the stuff you consider "fluffy" is the main reason I can pull Jedi mind tricks on people and get paid for it. Because I have a broad cultural education, I know how to push the subconcious buttons to influence people without them even knowing they are being influenced. It that isn't a useful skill, what is?

Strel, I think if you focused on pattern prevalence, you might have a better chance of persuading anti-intellectuals of the value of a broad education. Humans are wired to identify patterns, and there's a reason for that. We learn to look for patterns because what we've learned in a completely different situation in the past can apply to our present. Take computer programming, for instance. Computer programming routines have patterns (programmers also have distinctive rhythms that are almost a signature). The programming patterns are what hackers latch onto when they are trying to break into a system. The hackers know particular codes that have been weak in the past, and when they study the program, they look for the patterns where that code has been imbedded in the past. When an electrician comes to your home to fix some bad wiring, he looks to see what doesn't look right, what doesn't match the patterns he's found in the past to be sound and reliable. When we drive, we scan the road ahead of us, the traffic behind us, what's happening on the side of the road. If the pattern is the one we're familiar with, no red flags, but if the pattern is disrupted, we become more alert, take more caution.

How this applies to a broad education like the liberal arts, is that the education is meant to expose us to a multitude of patterns. All human activities are marked by patterns. Art, music, literature, architecture, medicine all reveal patterns. And many of those patterns cross disciplines, so that a math major can appreciate the patterns in Bach, but a music major can find himself easily mastering differential equations. Specialization is obviously very valuable in many disciplines, but many specialists rely on the broader education that helps them to see patterns, and to utilize those patterns.

[Strel]

That's certainly a better way of putting it to someone on "that" side of the fence.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

No matter how hard they try to convince themselves it's possible, you simply can't "pray away the gay" - nor can you "raise kids to be straight," or shelter them enough to suppress natural feelings. FYI, there are many gay-friendly churches and temples around here... I doubt any of them are LDS, though.

I personally know two devoutly LDS families in my own neighborhood who have gay sons. In both cases, the parents are loving and supportive of their sons and the entire families are very close. Of course, in these families, the sons didn't tell the parents to go "f" themselves. That might have made a difference. I know that as a Mormon who was very much opposed to my Church's stance on Prop 8 and holds absolutely no animosity towards gays, had I been sitting in a congregation where an angry 17-year-old kid stood up and told us to all go "f" ourselves, I wouldn't have questioned, at the very least, his maturity and good judgement. I don't personally have any use for bigots, and to me one form of bigotry is every bit as bad as another. If people want to be judged as individuals, they should show the same respect to other people in return. Telling an entire congregation to go "f" themselves is simply childish.