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"Most of us can remember many of the books on the assigned reading list in middle and high school — from Charles Dickens’ “Great Expectations” to Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s “Crime and Punishment.” Today, however, required reading for students apparently includes “Tweak: Growing up on Methamphetamines,” a book that features a scene depicting a homosexual orgy and “Norwegian Wood,” a book that features a sex scene between a 31-year-old woman and a 13-year old girl."
There was a time I wouldn't have believed this type of reading material was available in a public school library, let alone recommended or even required for not only high schoolers but middle schoolers as well. But, that was before my 10 year old dd entered middle school in 5th grade in a new district. Then, I saw the type of books being recommended and/or required by her teachers and I started doing some research and discovered books in the school library that contained the type of material described in this story. I doubt that many parents realize what is being pushed on their children in the guise of "literature" in our local bookstores, public libraries and even in our schools. Many of these books come packaged in cute little pink covers. And for those that say even the classics or the Bible have references to sex and profanity, I have read both types of books and there is a glaring difference. One may have references; the other graphic depictions with little or no moral consequences.
Yea, now you're repeating yourself, I read you the first time and no, it's not a contest, the whole point of an anectdotal experience is it does not represent scientific or factual evidence - it by definition is subjective. You're "actual experience" is also anectdotal.
One big difference-- I am gay. So my creditibility on the matter might outweigh a fleeting comment you misinterpreted from your friend in the past.
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Originally Posted by jwm1964
I personally believe that marriage is a social institution whose primary purpose is to create an optimum environment for raising children. That said however, I would like to see the federal government get out of the marriage business altogether and turn it over to religious organizations and business contracts. You want to be married, found a church that recognizes your union - you want inheritance, medical access etc. rights, create a legal contract between yourselves specifying these conditions.
So, you would also oppose people being married and not having children with same virility you oppose gay marriage? No? Didn't think so. Why not? Bigotry. Until the government "gets out the marriage business", I'll go ahead and request the same rights you have, thanks.
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Originally Posted by jwm1964
Nice sarcasm, and at least you didn't call me a homophobe, just a bigot.
But see, you really can't determine that without reading the book! I agree 100% about gratuitous sex which is just pornography, but there's no way you can separate the illicit sex and lust from a masterpiece like Lolita from the work as a whole.
I think certain Anime are masterpieces....I have even cried at some of them...doesn't mean I place high academic value on them...well, at least not as high as math and others....
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It seems extraordinarily unlikely that any teacher would select a book solely for is prurient content.
ok
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I don't know about you, but when I was a teenager there wasn't anything more relevant in my mind than sex. As for your "philosophical crap" comment - wow. That just makes me sad that you put such low value on culture. I'm eternally grateful that my parents did not have this attitude, and in addition (not instead of) teaching me the three R's, also instilled in my a knowledge and appreciation of literature and art. I can think of myriad reasons why they are important, but let me give you just one example: kids that don't read the good stuff end up being terrible writers, which is a handicap for them in ANY career.
My good friend is a doctor, he has terrible penmanship....he told me most doctors write like that..and so do I...we do just fine without a class on the "culture significance of hotdogs" or whatever..
don't know how knowing such things makes one more self-reliant.....a mechanical/structural degree can help you build a home....what the hell can a "philosophical meaning of pancakes" degree do?...."but it's sooo culturally important"....I can't feed myself with that crap...
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It's not as subjective as you seem to think. These books are considered important because there is a widespread consensus - sometimes centuries old - that they have educational and cultural value.
and I am sure when they were getting ready to place a man on the moon, or develop the A-bomb..all those scientists cracked opened those books to make it happen..
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I was both a science major AND a liberal arts major. BOTH have been absolutely essential to my career and success in it. In fact, I can tell you that my liberal arts education has actually been MORE useful overall.
ok, I'm sure it was...
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Any boob can learn substantive facts by rote memorization, but the stuff you consider so fluffy and unnecessary is actually the stuff that teaches people how to think. Hence my previous comment about people having no critical thinking skills.
how to think?...many people in the mathematical and scientific field have to stretch our imagination to impossible heights to make any kind of advancement...ever heard of the String Theory?.....and I am sure not one of us had to step into a single class on "Greek philosophy" or whatever to do it...we do just fine without crap like that..
you people keep saying "to think critically"..(which is such an overused unoriginal term, you people sound like you are parroting each other, you would think would all your insights into "culture" and "education" you would come up with something original for yourselves)..but you keep repeating "critical thinking"...critical thinking at what?....16th century philosophical meaning of soap?.....what does all this "critical thinking" applies to?...
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Without reading the book itself, I don't know what significance it has or what message it sends. Neither do you.
you are right...without reading it who can say anything?...so why the hell those who haven't even read it themselves acting like its some kind of "masterpiece" that is being oppressed or something?..
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It is rampant in this thread, however.
point to a quote, show it to me...even paraphrase it...
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More's the pity for you.
pity?....lol...so you think I am not as "intelligent" as you and I am losing out on something great because i don't know the " existential eating habits of 16th century peasants"?...ok....you can feel like knowing that stuff matters...
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I do. Every day.
and I am sure you do, it must be great to feel good about knowing things that have no impact on anything....good for you....
until you can shelter, feed and just live on knowing such things......then I will give that one to you...I am not saying that such things have no importance...but I fail to see how a degree in Shakespearean have importance to anything....
look, I will give credit that such knowledge does advance us culturally and socially....racism, sexism, imperialism and so on has been greatly reduced from such work....but if the economy/world was to collapse tomorrow...a degree in "eastern philosophy" is going to be pretty useless..
Not liking Shakespeare, I can get. Not everyone can think past a 3rd grade level and understand the language he uses.
However, diminishing the academic importance of his works?
Yeah.
Okay.
I didn't even remotely suggest that I found Shakespeare hard to read...just how knowing such thing help me to feed and house myself..you are grasping at straws to hold on to your "intellectualism"
Shakespeare does have academic importance.....it gives insights into the human mind/soul....but until such knowledge can help build homes, send rockets into space and cure diseases...I am not going to consider it a great reservoir for human advancements and knowledge...
I think certain Anime are masterpieces....I have even cried at some of them...doesn't mean I place high academic value on them...well, at least not as high as math and others....
And maybe they are, if decades of anime experts agreed with you. The kind of books I see people arguing over here are by and large accepted in the literary world as worthy of reading.
There's a reason you won't find pulp fiction in my library, because I got exposed to the good stuff as a kid. Thank God.
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ok
My good friend is a doctor, he has terrible penmanship....he told me most doctors write like that..and so do I...we do just fine without a class on the "culture significance of hotdogs" or whatever..
Did you actually think I was talking about PENMANSHIP? Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick. You really DO need a broader education!
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don't know how knowing such things makes one more self-reliant.....a mechanical/structural degree can help you build a home....what the hell can a "philosophical meaning of pancakes" degree do?...."but it's so culturally important"....I can't feed myself with that crap...
It doesn't necessarily make someone more self-reliant, it DOES help make someone able to work and play well with others (your stupid example notwithstanding). Nearly every human condition and conflict has been experienced in some way and by someone before. Our culture has important lessons to teach us and they aren't only useful for winning on Jeopardy or making sparkling conversation at cocktail parties (though you should not undervalue that skill, either. It can get you promoted, hired and even laid).
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and I am sure when they were getting ready to place a man on the moon, or develop the A-bomb..all those scientists cracked opened those books to make it happen..
But being well-rounded individuals helped them do it. They still have to communicate with each other. They still need to, unless we expect them to be souless, obedient robots, understand the broader implications of what they are doing.
What you are advocating is the use of only one half of the brain. That itself is just stupid. You think that intelligence is all that is required of us, when history is replete with examples of how disastrous is the application of intelligence without wisdom.
Another example. Intelligence tells you what the answer to a question is. Wisdom is knowing whether or not to answer the question in the first place, or how, depending on your audience. Science and technical subjects are great at teaching intelligence, but fail at teaching wisdom. You need to spend some time on the other side of the campus to learn that.
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ok, I sure it was...
You can count on it. I make my living in both areas, advising on technical subjects requires me to have specific technical knowledge. I also have to persuade people, in effect, I have to sell ideas. It does not a damn bit of good to be 100% right if you cannot influence people into believing you are right.
I have to wonder how much time you have really spent in the real world, working with real humans on real problems...
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how to think?...many people in the mathematical and scientific field have to stretch our imagination to impossible heights to make any kind of advancement...ever heard of the String Theory?.....and I am sure not one of us had to step into a single class on "Greek philosophy" or whatever to do it...we do just fine without crap like that..
Wow you really just don't get it at all. Just curious, but do you have Asperger's Syndrome?
Whether you do "just fine" is questionable. In certain contexts you might be correct about that, but there's a reason I don't let my IT people handle litigation. Think about why. They suck at it.
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you people keep saying "to think critically"..(which is such an overused unoriginal term, you people sound like you are parroting each other, you would think would all your insights into "culture" and "education" you would come up with something original for yourselves)..but you keep repeating "critical thinking"...critical thinking at what?....16th century philosophical meaning of soap?.....what does all this "critical thinking" applies to?...
Everything under the sun, grasshopper. I'll cite the example from above again. Intelligence is knowing what to say. Wisdom is knowing when to keep it to yourself.
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you are right...without reading it who can say anything?...so why the hell those who haven't even read it themselves acting like its some kind of "masterpiece" that is being oppressed or something?..
It's called giving something the benefit of the doubt, a concept not well covered in science classes, but which has important applications in the real world of human interaction.
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point to a quote, show it to me...even paraphrase it...
How about the thread title itself?
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pity?....lol...so you think I am not as "intelligent" as you and I am losing out on something great because i don't know the " existential eating habits of 16th century peasants"?...ok....you can feel like knowing that stuff matters...
No, I think you are quite intelligent, but not very wise. I also think you don't really understand the difference. And you really are missing out on half (or more) of the human experience, because you are only using half your brain.
Knowing anything matters at some point or another.
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and I am sure you do, it must be great to feel good about knowing things that have no impact on anything....good for you....
There is no such thing. This is what Vonnegut called "the fundamental interconnectedness of things." But you probably didn't read him either.
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until you can shelter, feed and just live on knowing such things...
I never said that. This is a false dichotomy of your creation. I am advocating balance. You are advocating imbalance. Man is a combination of both the Appolonian and Dionysian aspects, but then again, such a reference is lost on you, since you probably never read Thomas Mann or Frederich Neitzsche, or understand the real difference between Bach (Appolonian) and someone like Wagner (Dionysian). You really are missing out.
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...then I will give that one to you...I am not saying that such things have no importance...but I fail to see how a degree in Shakespearean have importance to anything....
Because Shakespeare, in addition to writing very well, wrote very deeply. His work may have been the sitcoms of his century, but studying his works reveal profound truths about the world that are just as relevant today as they were when he wrote them. If this were not true, he would have been forgotten long ago.
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look, I will give credit that such knowledge does advance us culturally and socially....racism, sexism, imperialism and so on has been greatly reduced from such work....but if the economy/world was to collapse tomorrow...a degree in "eastern philosophy" is going to be pretty useless..
I totally disagree, and I'll give you just one example: Sun Tzu's The Art of War. I could go on, but I hope you get the point.
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,878,581 times
Reputation: 886
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Originally Posted by mlassoff
One big difference-- I am gay. So my creditibility on the matter might outweigh a fleeting comment you misinterpreted from your friend in the past.
So, you would also oppose people being married and not having children with same virility you oppose gay marriage? No? Didn't think so. Why not? Bigotry. Until the government "gets out the marriage business", I'll go ahead and request the same rights you have, thanks.
And maybe they are, if decades of anime experts agreed with you. The kind of books I see people arguing over here are by and large accepted in the literary world as worthy of reading.
There's a reason you won't find pulp fiction in my library, because I got exposed to the good stuff as a kid. Thank God.
Did you actually think I was talking about PENMANSHIP? Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick. You really DO need a broader education!
It doesn't necessarily make someone more self-reliant, it DOES help make someone able to work and play well with others (your stupid example notwithstanding). Nearly every human condition and conflict has been experienced in some way and by someone before. Our culture has important lessons to teach us and they aren't only useful for winning on Jeopardy or making sparkling conversation at cocktail parties (though you should not undervalue that skill, either. It can get you promoted, hired and even laid).
But being well-rounded individuals helped them do it. They still have to communicate with each other. They still need to, unless we expect them to be souless, obedient robots, understand the broader implications of what they are doing.
What you are advocating is the use of only one half of the brain. That itself is just stupid. You think that intelligence is all that is required of us, when history is replete with examples of how disastrous is the application of intelligence without wisdom.
Another example. Intelligence tells you what the answer to a question is. Wisdom is knowing whether or not to answer the question in the first place, or how, depending on your audience. Science and technical subjects are great at teaching intelligence, but fail at teaching wisdom. You need to spend some time on the other side of the campus to learn that.
You can count on it. I make my living in both areas, advising on technical subjects requires me to have specific technical knowledge. I also have to persuade people, in effect, I have to sell ideas. It does not a damn bit of good to be 100% right if you cannot influence people into believing you are right.
I have to wonder how much time you have really spent in the real world, working with real humans on real problems...
Wow you really just don't get it at all. Just curious, but do you have Asperger's Syndrome?
Whether you do "just fine" is questionable. In certain contexts you might be correct about that, but there's a reason I don't let my IT people handle litigation. Think about why. They suck at it.
Everything under the sun, grasshopper. I'll cite the example from above again. Intelligence is knowing what to say. Wisdom is knowing when to keep it to yourself.
It's called giving something the benefit of the doubt, a concept not well covered in science classes, but which has important applications in the real world of human interaction.
How about the thread title itself?
No, I think you are quite intelligent, but not very wise. I also think you don't really understand the difference. And you really are missing out on half (or more) of the human experience, because you are only using half your brain.
Knowing anything matters at some point or another.
There is no such thing. This is what Vonnegut called "the fundamental interconnectedness of things." But you probably didn't read him either.
I never said that. This is a false dichotomy of your creation. I am advocating balance. You are advocating imbalance. Man is a combination of both the Appolonian and Dionysian aspects, but then again, such a reference is lost on you, since you probably never read Thomas Mann or Frederich Neitzsche, or understand the real difference between Bach (Appolonian) and someone like Wagner (Dionysian). You really are missing out.
Because Shakespeare, in addition to writing very well, wrote very deeply. His work may have been the sitcoms of his century, but studying his works reveal profound truths about the world that are just as relevant today as they were when he wrote them. If this were not true, he would have been forgotten long ago.
I totally disagree, and I'll give you just one example: Sun Tzu's The Art of War. I could go on, but I hope you get the point.
whoa, relax...take a deep breath...you don't like your "intellectualism" challenged or something? "this guy must obviously have a mental defect for not recognizing how great I am"...LOL, ok...jeez..and I am sure you are super smart and super successful, just like everyone else on the internet....
but no wonder you are taking such offense..you spent a great deal of time reading such materials thinking you were gaining great useful information...I too would be upset if someone told my all that stuff in my head isn't all that important..well maybe not "important"...just didn't affect much...sorry for that.....look, some medieval author you read about is sooo relevant and important..and the world can't function without people like you reading his stuff.....feel better?
ancient human civilization such as the Mayans and Egyptians made all kinds of advancements with astronomy, mathematics and structural engineering, constructed cities and pyramids that would be a challenge today even with our heavy machinery, in-fact we still have many questions as to how they were able to do it...they were quite advanced...did fine without any kind of need for "philosophical meaning of my toes" babble you seem to think is so dependent for human advancement...
the fact that you think human imagination, exploration and advancements can't exist without some guy discussing the "philosophical meaning of this rock" is odd...we did just fine well before people like Shakespeare gain any notoriety...
and so Shakespeare has survived centuries and lead to some sitcoms, movies and remakes, spin off etc....would our advancements been hindered or slowed without such things?....
you said that our careers would be hindered from not knowing such things...that we would be terrible "writers" and thus our careers would suffer...well, we are terrible writers...our penmanship is horrible.....look at how many ellipses I use here..but we are doing just fine...none of us are whining about the "evil rich" or feel as if we are "oppressed victims" or something....nice try on moving the goalpost you yourself set up...but its not going to cut it..
I read this thread....the opposition was that it was just too graphic and inappropriate and can't find any academic value in it.....one sex scene was between a 13 year old and a 31 year old....is opposition to that pedophobic?...get over it, not everyone is "homophobic" because he don't want to be bothered with it all the freaking time....you can't simply say "no" or deny a gay person something without it being "homophobic" get over it...grow up...
and you pat yourself on the back from "reading..." those books....good for you, I am sure you can talk about all kinds of things that are "interesting"....but have you read the works of Michio Kaku? or papers on Phi and how beautiful it is?...or have you ever tried wrapping you mind around hyper-spatial geometry?....or thesis on astronomy and the vastness of space-time?....do you routinely have discussions with physicist and astronomers on hyper-dimensional mathematics? ......and have a kick ass time doing it?..yeah, that isn't about "real numbers" with "real people".... yeah I am missing out alright, you and your people talking about 16th art and pink bunnies is where the real "interest" are....
math and science communities usually make advancements on hard data.....not on some restrictive view on "wisdom"....that you seem to think that others needed to be "persuade" into accepting scientific discoveries is odd....they look at the data, peer-review it and then its done...they're not sitting around wondering the "deeper meaning" of it...take String Theory, scientist are not shying away from it because the idea of parallel universes are too extreme...if the math is sound, its sound...no need to "peruse" anyone...its all about data...
and you keep spewing "wisdom" and "philosophy" as if you have the authority over it....and why is that?..because you read a bunch of centuries old books?...that makes you wise?...you read some 16th century book on Greek philosophy and all of a sudden you think you know what "wisdom" is?...right...wisdom can come in many forms...sorry you feel as if its only limited to obscure archaic books....some of us can seek wisdom out beyond such constraints....we can "think critically" without relying on them so heavily....sorry you and others are so dependent on them.....that if students don't read crap like "Norwegian Wood"..their minds would be underdeveloped...really?...if you need crap like that for guidance on "wisdom"....well, that's just sad....
really?...the Art of War?..if human civilization was to collapse the first thing you should worry about is survival....how the hell are military tactics and warfare going to help you?.....are you going to raise an army during total social chaos?..just throwing out random carp thinking you sounded "smart"?...
look, I am going to cut you some slack....that stuff does have interest...it is important..and they do give us important lessons from our history...I mean what are the ramifications for splicing human and animal DNA?...having some kind of ethical/moral and philosophical center is very important so that we don't destroy ourselves with our creations...but without engineers and mathematicians you people wouldn't have lecture halls to stand around in patting each other on the back about how "important" and "smart" you are..
but to say people like Einstein and Shakespeare are both critical and vital to human advancement just doesn't cut it....we would have been fine without Romeo and Juliet ...where would we be without E=MC2?....it wouldn't surprise me how if you argued that the two are equally important......
if I had a choice to take one book to a deserted island and it was between mechanical/structural engineering or Greek philosophy...I'd take the mechanical/structural engineering one...can't build a shelter and house with Greek philosophy...can you?...you know?, you would probably argue some "intellectual" babble that you can...it wouldn't surprise me..
again...that stuff is important...but to say we can't get along without is absurd...again, it can be thought-provoking...it can be meaningful..and it is fun and interesting to talk about it....but when in a laboratory looking down a microscope trying to cure something or on a chalkboard trying to crack a quantum mechanical mathematical problem...it doesn't have much use....sorry....
don't know how knowing such things makes one more self-reliant.....a mechanical/structural degree can help you build a home....what the hell can a "philosophical meaning of pancakes" degree do?...."but it's sooo culturally important"....I can't feed myself with that crap...
FYI: I feed myself pretty well on my "liberal arts" degrees - BA in English Literature with a Master's in Library/Information Science... in fact, I'm earning money as I type this at my desk (on a quick 2-minute break).
not sure a degree in Shakespeare would put food on the table and pay the bills...but it could be that you and I have different views on "academic value"..
Ever heard of teaching, librarianship, journalism, editing, technical writing, screenwriting, school administration, etc, etc? Just a few things that come to mind, when we're talking about literature-related degrees... there's also something called graduate school, which is typically what these studies lead to, and most graduate degrees do have practical purposes in the job market. My sister has an undergraduate degree in Psychology, which sounds rather useless in a BA, but she then went on to law school - and I'd bet the cupcake on my desk that she earns more than most of the people in here today.
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LoL, for every liberal here on this thread I can recall 3 more liberals who I ran into real-life that got fancy degrees in "medieval philosophy" or something...been seeing that since high-school....kinda gotta go with real-life experience and not random internet posters....
you could very well be telling the "truth"....ok...you can have that..
and I am sure if I said "liberals don't own airplanes"...a bunch of liberals would crawl out of the woodwork claiming they own all kinds of "airplanes"...how do I know?..because I did something like that a year ago...who the hell owns an airplane?...and these liberals happen to be right there, at that very moment to tell me?...really?...
this is the internet...been here for awhile....
Maybe "liberals" don't always fit into your neat little stereotypes, and aren't aware that they're supposed to follow a liberal handbook... I don't recall getting such a book the first time I voted, and I imagine you didn't receive one from the Republican party either. Besides, the majority of Americans fall somewhere in the middle, politically speaking.
What would social conservatives prefer to see children reading? Let me guess... The Scarlet Letter? That's probably the type of world they would want us all to live in.
Last edited by AnUnidentifiedMale; 08-25-2011 at 09:51 PM..
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Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick. You really DO need a broader education!
" those books....good for you, I am sure you can talk about all kinds of things that are "interesting"....but have you read the works of Michio Kaku? or papers on Phi and how beautiful it is?...or have you ever tried wrapping you mind around hyper-spatial geometry?....or thesis on astronomy and the vastness of space-time?....do you routinely have discussions with physicist and astronomers on hyper-dimensional mathematics? ......and have a kick ass time doing it?..yeah, that isn't about "real numbers" with "real people".... yeah I am missing out alright, you and your people talking about 16th art and pink bunnies is where the real "interest" are....
