Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Again, who is "we"? The people you are referring to as "we" are not us and they are all dead now. Once and for all no land was seized that theoretically belonged to someone else. You keep repeating yourself over and over. It's not about justification but how things were done way back then compared to now. It's not about anyone's rules being more important than someone else's either. Conquest was a part of the entire world's history not just ours.
If people are forced to relocated from land and are killed if they don't... what else is that called aside from 'seizure?' The land belonged to them. It was their home and it had been that way for generations. Just because they didn't do what Europe did does not make this any less true. If the land wasn't there's, whose was it? One could argue it was empty land, but that's not the case as there were diverse groups already living there. Hell, if you go south of the US, there were entire Empires, which is more similar to how Europeans did things that any tribes within the Continental US, which goes back to the whole European elitism. They were convinced there way of life was superior and rather than working with the natives, they took control of them.
Why does the rest of the world's history matter when talking about an American event? I'm well aware of the world's bloody history. Perfect example; Nazi Germany. Here's the thing though, German's today don't celebrate Hitler. They know everything that happened at that time was wrong. They don't say things like 'well, it happened so oh, well." They learn from it and teach it how it was. That's my point. We look at our history in America, and we still have people like yourself who don't seem to see it as a problem with silly excuses like 'that's just how it was.' It doesn't matter. It was still wrong.
And before you argue that someone like Columbus, who made all of the slaughter and slavery possible, did good things too, let's remember that Hitler took a crippled Germany and turned it into a massive world power. Hitler did good too, but no one celebrates his economic triumph because of the things he did to achieve it. How is Columbus different in this regard? He reached America first, so what? Honestly, it's not like he had some kind of special knowledge that made that possible. Any other decent sailor could have done what he did.
Quote:
Internationally recognized borders do matter today. Are you kidding me? What would you have us do today? All of the tribes that settled within our borders are full fledged U.S. citizens. What more do you want? If Columbus Day bothers you so much then just ignore it. Oh, here we go with the "white" people rant. What difference does it make what race or skin color one has that it merits mentioning it? My ancestors were white but they came well after any Indian conflicts. Should they feel shame for something in the past that they weren't a part of?
You assume I'm arguing for white guilt, and I'm not. I'm arguing that historical figures should not be glorified for things that don't deserve praise. Columbus sailed to the Western hemisphere first. Big deal. As I said, anyone could have done that. He also set up a slave trade route and paved that way for justification by European powers to carry out genocide under this arrogant notion that Europe is better than everyone else and can do what it wants.
To make this perfectly clear, you should not feel guilty. But don't pretend what happened was even remotely justifiable. It does not matter if they didn't know better. Doing something wrong without knowing it was wrong is still doing something wrong.
If people are forced to relocated from land and are killed if they don't... what else is that called aside from 'seizure?' The land belonged to them. It was their home and it had been that way for generations. Just because they didn't do what Europe did does not make this any less true. If the land wasn't there's, whose was it? One could argue it was empty land, but that's not the case as there were diverse groups already living there. Hell, if you go south of the US, there were entire Empires, which is more similar to how Europeans did things that any tribes within the Continental US, which goes back to the whole European elitism. They were convinced there way of life was superior and rather than working with the natives, they took control of them.
Why does the rest of the world's history matter when talking about an American event? I'm well aware of the world's bloody history. Perfect example; Nazi Germany. Here's the thing though, German's today don't celebrate Hitler. They know everything that happened at that time was wrong. They don't say things like 'well, it happened so oh, well." They learn from it and teach it how it was. That's my point. We look at our history in America, and we still have people like yourself who don't seem to see it as a problem with silly excuses like 'that's just how it was.' It doesn't matter. It was still wrong.
And before you argue that someone like Columbus, who made all of the slaughter and slavery possible, did good things too, let's remember that Hitler took a crippled Germany and turned it into a massive world power. Hitler did good too, but no one celebrates his economic triumph because of the things he did to achieve it. How is Columbus different in this regard? He reached America first, so what? Honestly, it's not like he had some kind of special knowledge that made that possible. Any other decent sailor could have done what he did.
You assume I'm arguing for white guilt, and I'm not. I'm arguing that historical figures should not be glorified for things that don't deserve praise. Columbus sailed to the Western hemisphere first. Big deal. As I said, anyone could have done that. He also set up a slave trade route and paved that way for justification by European powers to carry out genocide under this arrogant notion that Europe is better than everyone else and can do what it wants.
To make this perfectly clear, you should not feel guilty. But don't pretend what happened was even remotely justifiable. It does not matter if they didn't know better. Doing something wrong without knowing it was wrong is still doing something wrong.
Call it whatever you want but it's still IN THE PAST and isn't about those of us living in the present! Give it up already. It's getting boring listening to the same old rant over and over. Go pee on a dead white man's grave from long ago if it makes you feel any better. I'm done with this and no one and I repeat no one is justifying anything! It's not about justification.
You never even answered the questions I posed to you about what those of us alive today are supposed to do for the descendants of the so-called natives today or why it is warranted. Isn't citizenship and all the rights of other Americans enough along with honoring their tribal lands?
Call it whatever you want but it's still IN THE PAST and isn't about those of us living in the present! Give it up already. It's getting boring listening to the same old rant over and over. Go pee on a dead white man's grave from long ago if it makes you feel any better. I'm done with this and no one and I repeat no one is justifying anything! It's not about justification.
You never even answered the questions I posed to you about what those of us alive today are supposed to do for the descendants of the so-called natives today or why it is warranted. Isn't citizenship and all the rights of other Americans enough along with honoring their tribal lands?
I've already answered that. Nothing can be done accept to learn from it and teach it as it happened. Not to sugar coat it or excuse it as 'oh, they just didn't no better.' Talking of an ethnic cleaning of one culture to make room for another should never be taken lightly or excused, yet it is; all the time. That's my point.
As I've already said, white guilt is not part of this. No white person alive today should feel guilty about what happened in the 1800s. No one was alive now was even there to see it happen. However, no one should feel that it was an ok thing to do. I could give a damn if removing that from history means I don't exist. My life isn't so important that I'm glad a civilization was destroyed so I could exist to have this discussion. It happened, and I accept that, but I want to analyze it and look as what led to it so that when we see signs of that happening again, as it did in Nazi Germany, we can stop it (I'd say it comes down to unwarranted nationalism).
As for Columbus day, I don't actually care that much. I just find it odd that some people have a problem with it not being celebrated in a country that is largely not too connected to the man anyway. Do I think it should be celebrated? No. As I said, Americans are barely connected to him and really, what he did is not something we needed him for. He's no Einstein who had some expertise that other didn't have. He was a talented navigator. There were a lot of those back in the day. He just got lucky (and lost).
If people are forced to relocated from land and are killed if they don't... what else is that called aside from 'seizure?' The land belonged to them. It was their home and it had been that way for generations. Just because they didn't do what Europe did does not make this any less true. If the land wasn't there's, whose was it? One could argue it was empty land, but that's not the case as there were diverse groups already living there. Hell, if you go south of the US, there were entire Empires, which is more similar to how Europeans did things that any tribes within the Continental US, which goes back to the whole European elitism. They were convinced there way of life was superior and rather than working with the natives, they took control of them.
Why does the rest of the world's history matter when talking about an American event? I'm well aware of the world's bloody history. Perfect example; Nazi Germany. Here's the thing though, German's today don't celebrate Hitler. They know everything that happened at that time was wrong. They don't say things like 'well, it happened so oh, well." They learn from it and teach it how it was. That's my point. We look at our history in America, and we still have people like yourself who don't seem to see it as a problem with silly excuses like 'that's just how it was.' It doesn't matter. It was still wrong.
And before you argue that someone like Columbus, who made all of the slaughter and slavery possible, did good things too, let's remember that Hitler took a crippled Germany and turned it into a massive world power. Hitler did good too, but no one celebrates his economic triumph because of the things he did to achieve it. How is Columbus different in this regard? He reached America first, so what? Honestly, it's not like he had some kind of special knowledge that made that possible. Any other decent sailor could have done what he did.
You assume I'm arguing for white guilt, and I'm not. I'm arguing that historical figures should not be glorified for things that don't deserve praise. Columbus sailed to the Western hemisphere first. Big deal. As I said, anyone could have done that. He also set up a slave trade route and paved that way for justification by European powers to carry out genocide under this arrogant notion that Europe is better than everyone else and can do what it wants.
To make this perfectly clear, you should not feel guilty. But don't pretend what happened was even remotely justifiable. It does not matter if they didn't know better. Doing something wrong without knowing it was wrong is still doing something wrong.
Uh; not Hitler. He was a fool, a crazy sick in the head fool but the Germans STILL liked another leader named Bismarck and he beat up many European countries about 150 years ago. IT is what it is.
Don't you think that 77 years of celebrating the ethic cleansing that occurred here, in the interest of establishing the states that eventually became our nation, is enough? Or is your point that ethnic cleansing is a good thing, as long as it clears the way for the ethnicities you like to prevail? Or are you in the camp that refuses to admit the truth, and thereby deny that what happened here was indeed systematic forced removal of the pre-Columbian nations from these territories with the intent of creating territories inhabited by people of mostly European extraction, and of mostly Christian persuasion?
Ethic cleansing? By the Indians? They slaughtered each other a long time before the immigrants from Europe arrived.
Please they didn't know violence till the white man came and killed the all!
Absolutely! They just sat around smoking weed that they bought with their welfare money so there was no need to be violent. Free weed, free food, free sex. What more could you ask for?
Absolutely! They just sat around smoking weed that they bought with their welfare money so there was no need to be violent. Free weed, free food, free sex. What more could you ask for?
A repeating rifle.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
