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Yes, and they migrated here first. Is what Europeans did not stealing?
I'm not really whining about that. What bothers me is our ignorance. Like I said, growing up, schools taught the native American genocide as 'manifest destiny.' This is insane. We act as if America is some land of freedom, and it really never has been. Someone's always been oppressed. Don't get me wrong, our constitution is amazing and the declaration of independence is a masterpiece, but to pretend our country wasn't built on the destruction of another civilization is the equivalent of stuffing our fingers in our ears and screaming 'I can't hear you!' Is there anything we can do about that now? Not really. We can teach it as it actually happened and not glorify everything that happened.
My beef with Columbus is mostly slave related.
As for indigenous, the best I can do is say look into anthropology. The athropological definition of indigenous is the one I (along with most people) use.
I don't recall saying people should have white guilt. In fact, I think I said the opposite. I am however against denialism. Europeans unjustly killed a population that had been living here centuries prior under the ludicrous concept that their laws and customs were better than every other place on Earth.
Arriving first doesn't mean squat. You're comparing a long ago past when people and lands were conquered because they were wide open frontiers without governments. How can you steal something one doesn't own anyway? I don't know what schools you attended but I was quite aware of all of this country's history and don't feel the least bit guilty about it because that's the way things were done back then. As I said, the tribes that settled within U.S. borders are all full fledged U.S. citizens now.
As for the Europeans killing the so-called natives it was a two way street. Many times innocent woman and children were slaughtered by the so-called natives. The different tribes warred against each other also.
Arriving first doesn't mean squat. You're comparing a long ago past when people and lands were conquered because they were wide open frontiers without governments. How can you steal something one doesn't own anyway? I don't know what schools you attended but I was quite aware of all of this country's history and don't feel the least bit guilty about it because that's the way things were done back then. As I said, the tribes that settled within U.S. borders are all full fledged U.S. citizens now.
As for the Europeans killing the so-called natives it was a two way street. Many times innocent woman and children were slaughtered by the so-called natives. The different tribes warred against each other also.
I never felt guilty, so stop bringing that up.
I'd argue that the Indigenous Americans did in fact have a 'government.' They had tribal leaders and a hierarchical system. There was leadership and cultural 'laws.' This technically fits in with the definition of government. What you are essentially arguing it 'they didn't have Europeans laws and customs and those are the only one's that matter.' And even if that's not what you think, you are defending those who did think that. And this is when I start to have a problem. We constantly try and justify the atrocities. "We wouldn't be here today" or "they have tribal lands (because those are just so lovely... how generous...)" and I still can't wrap my mind around such egotistical logic. What, we stole there land and then call ourselves generous when we gave a small portion of it back? Are you kidding? We need to quit justifying it. What we need to do is accept it and learn form it. Acknowledge that it happened, teach people that is was wrong, and let people know that something like that can and should never happened again.
And I just want to make this point very clear. They owned the land. It was there's. Just because they didn't have white people government and use our odd system of ownership that apparently requires a piece of paper that clearly defines who owns what does not mean they didn't own it.
I'd argue that the Indigenous Americans did in fact have a 'government.' They had tribal leaders and a hierarchical system. There was leadership and cultural 'laws.' This technically fits in with the definition of government. What you are essentially arguing it 'they didn't have Europeans laws and customs and those are the only one's that matter.' And even if that's not what you think, you are defending those who did think that. And this is when I start to have a problem. We constantly try and justify the atrocities. "We wouldn't be here today" or "they have tribal lands (because those are just so lovely... how generous...)" and I still can't wrap my mind around such egotistical logic. What, we stole there land and then call ourselves generous when we gave a small portion of it back? Are you kidding? We need to quit justifying it. What we need to do is accept it and learn form it. Acknowledge that it happened, teach people that is was wrong, and let people know that something like that can and should never happened again.
And I just want to make this point very clear. They owned the land. It was there's. Just because they didn't have white people government and use our odd system of ownership that apparently requires a piece of paper that clearly defines who owns what does not mean they didn't own it.
I'm not defending anything. I just don't feel the need to focus on a past or feel bad about a past that I wasn't a part of so why do you? Who's this "we" you keep referring to? Those people are all dead now. Again, there was no stolen land! It was immigration from all over the world and conflicts ensued.
I'm not defending anything. I just don't feel the need to focus on a past or feel bad about a past that I wasn't a part of so why do you? Who's this "we" you keep referring to? Those people are all dead now. Again, there was no stolen land! It was immigration from all over the world and conflicts ensued.
If Russians immigrated and forced everyone out, it would be considered 'stolen.' This assumes they'd get away with it, otherwise it would be called an invasion. You can say it's different, but it's not. The US has laws and customs and we've been here. The Russians come in and say they want the land and they take it under the idea that there laws are so much better than ours that there's have a priority and therefore can justify taking the land. This is what happened during colonization. They already had theirs laws and customs. They did them different from Europeans, but that means absolutely nothing. The land was theirs. We took it because we thought our way of life was more important. It's stealing because if someone did that to us, we'd be upset and consider it stealing.
What a stupid city government. Every modern day country across the world were conquered and overthrown by some tribe or kingdom to be what they are. For some f-ing reason, people have a particular hang up about this country and our traditions rather than anywhere else.
Last edited by allenk893; 10-05-2014 at 02:44 PM..
What a stupid city government. Everyone modern country across the world were conquered and overthrown by some tribe or kingdom to be what they are. For some f-ing reason, people have a particular hang up about this country and our traditions rather than anywhere else.
You got that right. We are talking about a city that the Mayor wears a Muslim head scarf when she meets with Somali businessmen so she doesn't offend their Muslim women hatred.
If Russians immigrated and forced everyone out, it would be considered 'stolen.' This assumes they'd get away with it, otherwise it would be called an invasion. You can say it's different, but it's not. The US has laws and customs and we've been here. The Russians come in and say they want the land and they take it under the idea that there laws are so much better than ours that there's have a priority and therefore can justify taking the land. This is what happened during colonization. They already had theirs laws and customs. They did them different from Europeans, but that means absolutely nothing. The land was theirs. We took it because we thought our way of life was more important. It's stealing because if someone did that to us, we'd be upset and consider it stealing.
Are you talking about modern day Russians? That's entirely different. Every modern day country has internationally recognized borders and governments and if Russia tried to conquer us today it would be an all out war. It has nothing to do with anyone's laws being better than another's. Again, throughout history wars have been fought and lands and peoples conquered. It's not just this country that has that "history". But those of us alive today don't owe anyone anything because of what some long ago dead people did. Again, who is this "we" you keep referring to?
And this is why this forum should be called idiot data. Who cares, and I mean, we did kind of completely screw over the natives, so it makes sense to respect them, rather than act like a bunch of blind euro-centrists (a 2dollar word for most of the teabaggers on this site).
Who's "we"? Those people are all dead now. What does the teaparty (not baggers) have to do with this?
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