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By today's rules, Columbus did do things wrong. Which is why I feel celebrating him is insane. He didn't do anything that is really essential. He started a slave trade route. Are we supposed to credit him for discovering America? Because I don't. Had he not done it, someone else would have. He also has no connection to the US. He was Italian and funded by Spain. He didn't even land in the continental US. The US having a day for this guy makes no sense, even if you ignore the terrible things he did.
And no, the Indigenous Americans weren't necessarily moral by today's standards either, though they were no more immoral than Europeans were. The only difference is Europeans were more industrialized and had the power to win and write history in their favor, which is why the Native American genocide is refereed to as 'Manifest Destiny' in textbooks.
And yeah, the native tribes of today have forgotten the bad things their ancestors did. So? We should do the same, but instead, we celebrate people like Columbus under the guise that 'he discovered America' which is largely untrue and not something that wouldn't have been done within a decade anyway.
I don't think he celebrates it; he's just aware that Columbus' legacy should logically be 'slavery and ethnic cleansing.'
Of course not. However, I think back to my elementary school days and he's still often given that credit. But you're right, that was not his goal. His goal was mostly economic.
What? Are you referring to Biblical creation to disprove natural history? That's cute.
Indigenous people exist. Claiming they don't make no sense. This is to say, white Europeans would be considered 'indigenous' because they've lived there for centuries. Black people would be indigenous to Africa (though not all black people actually come from Africa). The basic idea of indigenous people comes from who lived where before the era of mass colonization and imperialism.
Well, arguably yes to some degree. But you have to ask who committed the crimes? In the case of some South American countires, did Europeans do the killing or did the people who already lived there do the killing (and note that many survived and are still around today, though likely have bred with those of European decent)?
It is arbitrary to disdain a nation for it's past crimes, but to celebrate them is absolutely stupid.
Says the guy who ignores all science and still thinks Adam and Eve actually existed...
Also, his goals were not exclusively exploration based. He was also out for economic gain. He was not the only one. Many explorers were searching for gold because Europe was running out. Not to mention the gain of land and slave labor.
Indigenous means you were born in a particular place. So only those born on the soil of a certain country are indigenous to it. All of our ancestors were indigenous to Africa. Generations of their descendants migrated all over the world just as the so-called native Americans migrated from across the Bering Strait so no they weren't "indigenous" to this continent/country. I'd like to know where you get the notion that the idea of indigenous people comes from those who lived in a certain place before the era of mass colonization and imperialism. Opinions don't count. Facts do.
Why embarrassing? The people who decided Columbus 'discovered' the west just didn't know better. The place was populated by the indigenous long before Columbus was born, much less learned how to sail a ship, or beg for money to explore.
I think a renaming is in order though I thought Olaf the Red Day would sound more fun.
Indigenous means you were born in a particular place. So only those born on the soil of a certain country are indigenous to it. All of our ancestors were indigenous to Africa. Generations of their descendants migrated all over the world just as the so-called native Americans migrated from across the Bering Strait so no they weren't "indigenous" to this continent/country. I'd like to know where you get the notion that the idea of indigenous people comes from those who lived in a certain place before the era of mass colonization and imperialism. Opinions don't count. Facts do.
Only facts count? Columbus did not discover the Americas. Tribes of ethnic Asians who migrated across the Bering Straight following big game did and they did this several centuries before Columbus was born. The European colonists, after Columbus made his false discovery, began to migrate to the Americas. The US was primarily populated by those of English decent. After the American revolution, the US government began working towards expanding out west, an area that was currently owned by tribal cultures (I'm going to call them Indigenous Americans from this point on rather you like it or not; there's no other word for them and I'm not calling them Indians because that's stupid), as was the area the United States currently had (prior to colonization). Thus began forced relocation and genocide of tribal cultures under the guise of 'manifest destiny' the apparent God given right to do whatever you want to whom ever you want.
We look at this history, tend to give credit to Columbus, and celebrate this day. Those are the facts. And they suck.
As for indigenous, it does exist. It can be a tricky subject because it depends on how broadly you define indigenous. Arguably, you and I are both indigenous Americans (I assume you are). Both of us were born in the US by people who were also born here. Thus making us Native Americans (Indigenous). That's the broadest definition. By the definition that is most commonly used by basically every form of scholar there is, ingenious relies on historical inhabitants. European colonists would be 'indigenous Europeans' because that specific 'race' of people have lived there for centuries. This applies to many different cultures and races on (almost) all continents. The Indigenous Americans had been in the America for centuries. They're people had been there for generations upon generations. The land was as good as theirs and they were the native population, just as the other species that lived in the Americas. Plenty of other species migrated to the Americas along side the people who did. They were just as indigenous as any of the other species that wandered over there. If you want to use your very narrow 'you had to have evolved there' reasoning, that's fine. I tend to gravitate to the more middle ground area to use the term indigenous.
Either way, you version does not bring anything to the ethical side of the problem with colonization. Indigenous or not, the Indigenous Americans had lived there for centuries and us forcing them out or killing them is a violation of morals. Had some other culture invaded Europe in the way America was conquered, those of European decent would not view colonization as even slightly justifiable.
All of this in mind, I don't advocate white guilt. It's not my fault my distant ancestors were devoid of rationality. But I also don't advocate celebrating it either. I advocate accepting it and that's it. A man who accidentally landed in the Americas, which led to slave trade and genocide, does not really deserve a holiday and a city that does not recognize should not be judged in anyway for not caring about some lost, Italian explorer.
Only facts count? Columbus did not discover the Americas. Tribes of ethnic Asians who migrated across the Bering Straight following big game did and they did this several centuries before Columbus was born. The European colonists, after Columbus made his false discovery, began to migrate to the Americas. The US was primarily populated by those of English decent. After the American revolution, the US government began working towards expanding out west, an area that was currently owned by tribal cultures (I'm going to call them Indigenous Americans from this point on rather you like it or not; there's no other word for them and I'm not calling them Indians because that's stupid), as was the area the United States currently had (prior to colonization). Thus began forced relocation and genocide of tribal cultures under the guise of 'manifest destiny' the apparent God given right to do whatever you want to whom ever you want.
We look at this history, tend to give credit to Columbus, and celebrate this day. Those are the facts. And they suck.
As for indigenous, it does exist. It can be a tricky subject because it depends on how broadly you define indigenous. Arguably, you and I are both indigenous Americans (I assume you are). Both of us were born in the US by people who were also born here. Thus making us Native Americans (Indigenous). That's the broadest definition. By the definition that is most commonly used by basically every form of scholar there is, ingenious relies on historical inhabitants. European colonists would be 'indigenous Europeans' because that specific 'race' of people have lived there for centuries. This applies to many different cultures and races on (almost) all continents. The Indigenous Americans had been in the America for centuries. They're people had been there for generations upon generations. The land was as good as theirs and they were the native population, just as the other species that lived in the Americas. Plenty of other species migrated to the Americas along side the people who did. They were just as indigenous as any of the other species that wandered over there. If you want to use your very narrow 'you had to have evolved there' reasoning, that's fine. I tend to gravitate to the more middle ground area to use the term indigenous.
Either way, you version does not bring anything to the ethical side of the problem with colonization. Indigenous or not, the Indigenous Americans had lived there for centuries and us forcing them out or killing them is a violation of morals. Had some other culture invaded Europe in the way America was conquered, those of European decent would not view colonization as even slightly justifiable.
All of this in mind, I don't advocate white guilt. It's not my fault my distant ancestors were devoid of rationality. But I also don't advocate celebrating it either. I advocate accepting it and that's it. A man who accidentally landed in the Americas, which led to slave trade and genocide, does not really deserve a holiday and a city that does not recognize should not be judged in anyway for not caring about some lost, Italian explorer.
If you don't like Columbus Day celebrated then that's your prerogative. I'm not debating that. I am debating the fact that there were no indigenous to the Americas. The so-called natives didn't sprout up out of the ground like corn. They migrated here just as the Europeans did. There were no immigration laws back then nor any real governments or borders.
Throughout the history of the world wars have been fought and lands have exchanged hands why whine about something that is long gone past and you weren't even involved in or even alive back then? The so-called natives are full-fledged U.S. citizens now and have their tribal lands.
We'll have to agree to disagree on what indigenous truly means then. Did Columbus commit any genocide himself? He landed in the Americas and then others followed him. How does that make him personally responsible for any genocide? Aren't we only responsible for our own actions?
Why even mention "white guilt"? How is anyone guilty just by race? My ancestors didn't even come here until Ellis Island was in place. Are they and myself guilty just because we are white? All white people aren't related. We all came from different ancestoral countries and cultures. And many of our ancestors weren't involved in any genocide.
Just make a white guilt day so liberals can get together to soil their panties and cry.
Even better.....a white guilt month. Young black kids can go around punching white people in the face for no reason without fear of punishment,.....ooh, wait.
If you don't like Columbus Day celebrated then that's your prerogative. I'm not debating that. I am debating the fact that there were no indigenous to the Americas. The so-called natives didn't sprout up out of the ground like corn. They migrated here just as the Europeans did. There were no immigration laws back then nor any real governments or borders.
Yes, and they migrated here first. Is what Europeans did not stealing?
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Throughout the history of the world wars have been fought and lands have exchanged hands why whine about something that is long gone past and you weren't even involved in or even alive back then? The so-called natives are full-fledged U.S. citizens now and have their tribal lands.
I'm not really whining about that. What bothers me is our ignorance. Like I said, growing up, schools taught the native American genocide as 'manifest destiny.' This is insane. We act as if America is some land of freedom, and it really never has been. Someone's always been oppressed. Don't get me wrong, our constitution is amazing and the declaration of independence is a masterpiece, but to pretend our country wasn't built on the destruction of another civilization is the equivalent of stuffing our fingers in our ears and screaming 'I can't hear you!' Is there anything we can do about that now? Not really. We can teach it as it actually happened and not glorify everything that happened.
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We'll have to agree to disagree on what indigenous truly means then. Did Columbus commit any genocide himself? He landed in the Americas and then others followed him. How does that make him personally responsible for any genocide? Aren't we only responsible for our own actions?
My beef with Columbus is mostly slave related.
As for indigenous, the best I can do is say look into anthropology. The athropological definition of indigenous is the one I (along with most people) use.
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Why even mention "white guilt"? How is anyone guilty just by race? My ancestors didn't even come here until Ellis Island was in place. Are they and myself guilty just because we are white? All white people aren't related. We all came from different ancestoral countries and cultures. And many of our ancestors weren't involved in any genocide.
I don't recall saying people should have white guilt. In fact, I think I said the opposite. I am however against denialism. Europeans unjustly killed a population that had been living here centuries prior under the ludicrous concept that their laws and customs were better than every other place on Earth.
Yes, and they migrated here first. Is what Europeans did not stealing?
I'm not really whining about that. What bothers me is our ignorance. Like I said, growing up, schools taught the native American genocide as 'manifest destiny.' This is insane. We act as if America is some land of freedom, and it really never has been. Someone's always been oppressed. Don't get me wrong, our constitution is amazing and the declaration of independence is a masterpiece, but to pretend our country wasn't built on the destruction of another civilization is the equivalent of stuffing our fingers in our ears and screaming 'I can't hear you!' Is there anything we can do about that now? Not really. We can teach it as it actually happened and not glorify everything that happened.
My beef with Columbus is mostly slave related.
As for indigenous, the best I can do is say look into anthropology. The athropological definition of indigenous is the one I (along with most people) use.
I don't recall saying people should have white guilt. In fact, I think I said the opposite. I am however against denialism. Europeans unjustly killed a population that had been living here centuries prior under the ludicrous concept that their laws and customs were better than every other place on Earth.
This is 2014. So SOME Europeans killed some Indians here way back in the day; I'm 100 percent sure the killings went the other way too. It's history: nothing more.
Attitudes are going AGAINST being "PC" more and more. Columbus Day ain't going anywhere IMHO. It is what it is.
American Indians: if the white man REALLY wanted to murder ALL of them, it could've been done.
This is 2014. So SOME Europeans killed some Indians here way back in the day; I'm 100 percent sure the killings went the other way too. It's history: nothing more.
Attitudes are going AGAINST being "PC" more and more. Columbus Day ain't going anywhere IMHO. It is what it is.
American Indians: if the white man REALLY wanted to murder ALL of them, it could've been done.
Well, there intent wasn't really murder. It was land. They decided they deserved the land more so they took it, but force if they had to. Yes, some Natives killed the settlers. Sometimes just because, others in defense.
And of course Columbus day isn't 'going anywhere.' Realistically, do people even care about Columbus day? A couple of tweets about it and then it's business as usual. That's how our society works these days. People moan about how much America sucks, accept on July 4th and 9/11... then it's patriotism all over the place, at least until 9/11 joins Pearl Harbor in the club of forgotten American tragedies. The real issue is that some posters have a problem with a holiday that really means nothing not being celebrated in a city and is replaced by a holiday for the Native Americans. That's absurd. Columbus wasn't all that important, big picture (at least not to America) and he wasn't even American or English. He was Italian and funded by the Spanish and he landed south of the US border. Why do we even care about the guy?
No one celebrates or associates an ethnic cleansing with Columbus day, except you.
What a ridiculously vacuous statement. Evidently I struck a nerve and you got embarrassed by the offensiveness of what you believe. Take responsibility for your own detritus.
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