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Just look at other threads that are related to who comes up with the initiative, what is chivalry, women asking a guy out, etc. They come out all the time. Or just do a google search and type chivalry, who pays on a date, etc.
Do you like to approach a total stranger you find attractive to start up a conversation, get him a drink, ask for his phone number, set a date and ask him out, make reservations, take him to dinner, take him to an event, take care of all expenses, drop him off at home, etc.?
No, I do not do that with a stranger. And I don't know any friends, male or female, who would do everything on your list for a stranger
No one can ever do enough. Everyone is supposed to do everything and the chores are never done and our responsibilities are never completable. And yes, I know that's not really a word.
To some extent gender roles will always have a place depending on the people involved.
Most people know I am a feminist and I attempt to have an equal relationship with my SO but today was a clear example of a typical gender role.
My car needed an inspection sticker and like some women, I simply drive the thing, stick petrol in it and windscreen liquid and that's it. So my fog light was out, my back brake light and the brakes needed rotors and pads.
My husband did the brake pads and rotors and took the car to the garage so the mechanic could do the lights, then had the car inspected.
I went to the hairdresser and had my hair cut.
This little episode didn't change our relationship, he felt validated as a man doing his manly job and I felt perfectly ok letting him do all the work. I had no interest in getting my hands dirty.
Gender roles can work perfectly well in an equal relationship in my opinion.
Ironically, that's likely due to gender roles. Man's work has always been more valuable than woman's work.
Hi Braunwyn,
A tragic consequence to the abolition of slavery is a quantifiable market value for humanity. We could otherwise see more visibly that it was in fact the opposite. It was the product of women's labor that was much more valuable, at least according to William Ross Wallace. By the quality of today's citizenry, I suspect they could not give some away in Barbary.
No, I do not do that with a stranger. And I don't know any friends, male or female, who would do everything on your list for a stranger
Ok, change of scenario. Let's say you like the cute guy at work you greet each morning at work and have a brief chat. Would you take the initiative to approach him to start up a conversation, ask for his phone number, set a date and ask him out, make reservations, take him to dinner, take him to an event, take care of all expenses, drop him off at home, etc.? You doing it all for him or do you feel this is something a man should do instead?
To some extent gender roles will always have a place depending on the people involved.
Most people know I am a feminist and I attempt to have an equal relationship with my SO but today was a clear example of a typical gender role.
My car needed an inspection sticker and like some women, I simply drive the thing, stick petrol in it and windscreen liquid and that's it. So my fog light was out, my back brake light and the brakes needed rotors and pads.
My husband did the brake pads and rotors and took the car to the garage so the mechanic could do the lights, then had the car inspected.
I went to the hairdresser and had my hair cut.
This little episode didn't change our relationship, he felt validated as a man doing his manly job and I felt perfectly ok letting him do all the work. I had no interest in getting my hands dirty.
Gender roles can work perfectly well in an equal relationship in my opinion.
So I guess you have no problems cooking and washing the dishes while he watches the game on tv, right? Just like he did a "man job" by fixing the car .
So I guess you have no problems cooking and washing the dishes while he watches the game on tv, right? Just like he did a "man job" by fixing the car .
I don't do the cooking, he does. He also grocery shops and does the housework. I do the laundry. We don't have defined roles, he does what he enjoys, I do what I enjoy. Sometimes I'll get out and mow the lawn but normally he does the outside work. We have a nice kind of balance I feel. It might not work for everyone, especially if they have a family, but it's just the two of us.
Both of my parents worked full-time outside the home. My mother wasn't the nurturing type in the first place, so I guess it was for the best that she worked. But I noticed that she not only 'had it all' she was having to do it all. I saw no advantage to marriage if I was going to grow up having to bring home the bacon, fry it in a pan and never let my husband forget that he's a man. Women are expected to be well-educated, goal-oriented, driven and successful, yet are still judged on their looks on top of it all. We have more choices but with that come more responsibilities and worries. Although it was aimed more at my late grandmothers' generation, I read The Feminine Mystique and it left me wondering what was so bad about being a housewife, unless your spouse is abusing you. The women in that book had no stressful commutes to work, demoralizing job searches, no rat race, no office politics, bitchy bosses and no annoying coworkers. But to each her own, I guess they got bored at home. Maybe the grass is always greener on the other side. Since I wasn't around back then, the grass from the past seems greener to me. So with clearly defined gender roles, things were more restrictive, but also simpler.
Sometimes, it's wierd though, if I expect men to hold open the door for me and then some don't. And if you go out on a date, there's this worry about whether he expects to foot the bill or expects me to pitch in. And if he pays all, will he feel like I'm obligated to him for it? If I pitch in, will he still feel like he's entitled to cop a feel? I imagine my grandparents' generation didn't have those worries on their dates.
You know, despite your obstinate opinions, there are a few good male leaders out there. Just a possibility. I would actually say the women who chose them are intellectually gifted.
Intelligent, educated men tend to couple with intelligent, educated women. Neither need to be led. In order to develop intellect and garner an education takes leadership in one's own life, so it's unreasonable to assert that opposite action renders the same result.
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Originally Posted by decafdave
Sure, I have to say I'm not remotely interested in debating that on this forum.
Well, good luck on message boards. Arguing/debate is par for the course.
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By being a leader I don't mean dominating a relationship. I do mean being the one to take the relationship further and regularly coming up with new ideas to do together. You're right in that a woman can take initiative in a relationship. My point is that most of the time, a man MUST be capable of initiative or there will be problems.
Both must be capable or there will be problems. A wife who is not giving 100% to her husband over the course of a marriage is going to face consequences. And yes, that requires initiative, thoughtfulness, and leadership. Life presents obstacles. You will fall down, have no doubt about it since life provides crushing blows for all of us, and your partner, providing you have a good marriage, will pull you out if it when needed. You will not shine in every area. You probably won't shine in most areas. But, between you and your partner you can make due together. Again, this is contingent upon a good marriage.
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Theories are all well and good. But I know from personal experience how women respond differently to an assertive man. I've never been married, but I've had enough failures and successes to know what works. Some of the nonsense people say are of no help to a guy who who sits back and hopes something good happens to him. 20 year old decafdave was notorious for this.
I agree. You should certainly be assertive. But, it's folly on your part to assume the main personal benefactor is the man. It is important for all people. You can lead all you want, but if you're leading a woman who does not know herself or what she wants, a woman who is not a leader in her own life, then I suspect the fruit you bear is in your own head.
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Where you went wrong (maybe I mis-communicated it) was assuming I meant a woman can't also have equal share in the relationship. I definitely don't want someone who will just let me take the reigns completely with no respect for herself or the relationship. I know of so many relationships that the guy just gave up more and more power, only to find himself in a bitter relationship. To try and tie this into the topic, I'd say that changing gender roles have led to confusion. Some guys think the empowerment of women means that they should just be passive. I don't know about in your age group, but passivity is like a plague among my peers.
I'm in my late 30s and I'm not promoting passivity, quite the opposite for both genders. In mid post my husband decided to sit with me on the front stoop. Among the various topics we discussed, he mentioned a co-worker at his restaurant and a conversation they had over the weekend. I don't know how it got started, but their talk involved being able to do what you want, when you want. I think this guy was inviting him out for a drink or something. My dh had to get home because we're going on vacation, which means my mom is coming up to house sit, which means the house has to be spotless. My dh had to mow the lawn, clean the basement, whatever. He couldn't flit off late night to the bar.
This guy went on about it. He hammered my husband about being hoodwinked into all these responsibilities, that he's a controlled man, etc. The reality is that in a marriage we don't get to do what we want, whenever we want. Folk willingly take on burdens because for many, the positives out way the inconveniences (like loss of freedom to party at will).
I bring that up because that's what I see on this forum when it comes to discussions of power. The work required for marriage, house, and family is some kind of offense. Not that you're saying as much, but it's my general sense in this forum.
Further, the changing of gender roles might be confusing some people. I'll give you that. But, for those of us who do not acknowledge gender roles in our personal lives, not so much. The money needs to be made, the lawn mowed, the house cleaned, the dog walked, etc, and none of those care whether it's a vagina or a penis getting it done.
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This is a complex topic, and I'd appreciate it if you don't pigeonhole me into a category you're eager to oppose. However, I expect you'll find something else to take offense to...
I'm just responding to your posts as I perceive them. You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation if you find it to be off. And don't worry about offense. This is just debate in my eyes and more of a game. You throw a ball, and I'll hit it. It just might not land where you like.
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Originally Posted by gwynedd1
Hi Braunwyn,
A tragic consequence to the abolition of slavery is a quantifiable market value for humanity. We could otherwise see more visibly that it was in fact the opposite. It was the product of women's labor that was much more valuable, at least according to William Ross Wallace. By the quality of today's citizenry, I suspect they could not give some away in Barbary.
The minds and heart of the net collective couldn't care less. And that is the here and now online. Off line, not so much. Well, not in my world.
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