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Speaking of which, if relationships are indeed "hard" (for which partner? ), why do people even bother with them? Work is hard. Other parts of life are hard. Why do people complicate their lives even further? Are we masochists or just scared of going against the norm?
Because, for most of us, the juice is worth the squeeze.
1) You have no idea what relationships were like in the 50s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist
Meh. I don't really expect my wife to support me or "lift me up". It's like playing chess and expecting your opponent to help you with your game. Like I mentioned earlier, I see marriage as a proverbial chess game, and I'm always thinking ahead, to avoid getting checkmated.
2) Your spouse is not an opponent. Just because you are not capable of feeling love for someone else doesn't mean that others don't feel it and pursue it and cherish it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist
Speaking of which, if relationships are indeed "hard" (for which partner? ), why do people even bother with them? Work is hard. Other parts of life are hard. Why do people complicate their lives even further? Are we masochists or just scared of going against the norm?
Why work? Why not just stay home and do what's fun, if it's so hard?
What IS truth? I know I've been kind of sarcastic with you, and it's because I really think you're a keyboard weirdo who doesn't want answers, who just likes to tell himself (in a truly teen fashion, what's more) that he's "confounding the weak-minded" while feeling haughty. I say that because I used to be that teen, with loads of knowledge and very little real wisdom regarding how to use it -- and I talked much the way you do.
BUT -- I also wish sometimes that I'd had the sense to listen when someone passed along a nugget of gold, because it would have put me miles ahead of a race I had to slog through the hard way.
As Spork said wonderingly -- do you even human? I know her some outside these forums, and she's got a delicious brain, so when she asks something like that I figure you're either being purposely obtuse (as a kid would), or there are some serious misfires going on upstairs, a hamster wheel that goes nowhere despite rapid spinning.
In the event you really DO wonder why I would try not to be that guy, and really believe it's me "running from the truth," here ya go:
I'm a man. I spent much of life as a boy, far more than I should have, and I had to learn a lot of stuff the hard way.
Truth: someone stuck in a wheelchair
Truth-by-effort: someone who doesn't allow that wheelchair to stop them from accomplishing what they want.
My truth isn't the only truth out there. There is a real world, and even if I don't agree with it there are things in that world that I WANT. They're not going to walk over to me meekly, letting me harness and pet them. I don't get to be Dinosaur Jesus unless I go out and lasso me a dinosaur.
I want relationships, and want them on certain terms. I've had to come to terms with my own terms, learn what I can and cannot do without in order to sustain MY VERSION of a healthy relationship.
Truth: I can be myself.
Truth-via-old-Korean-saying: A man must be equal to his times.
Truth-by-effort: If there are things I see hindering my interpersonal relationships I have choices:
-- A. I can accept these hindrances, learn to live with them uncompromisingly.
-- B. I can decide which things about myself are important, what I'm willing to change in pursuit of my goals, and what I'm not. I can exercise compromise.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,974,024 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist
I see what you mean. The 50's were indeed a "wholesome" time in our society. Heck, Cards Against Humanity didn't exist, and would be considered highly scandalous if it did. But still, in the 50's, spouses weren't required to be joined at the hip at all times. Social networks of friends and neighbors (not social media networks) were strong, as opposed making your spouse your be-all and end-all.
People were also stuck in loveless marriages and couldn't escape.
Use of "mothers little helper" pills were rampant.
Great times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Sasquatch
What IS truth? I know I've been kind of sarcastic with you, and it's because I really think you're a keyboard weirdo who doesn't want answers, who just likes to tell himself (in a truly teen fashion, what's more) that he's "confounding the weak-minded" while feeling haughty. I say that because I used to be that teen, with loads of knowledge and very little real wisdom regarding how to use it -- and I talked much the way you do.
You nailed what this is to a T. So easy to see through.
What IS truth? I know I've been kind of sarcastic with you, and it's because I really think you're a keyboard weirdo who doesn't want answers, who just likes to tell himself (in a truly teen fashion, what's more) that he's "confounding the weak-minded" while feeling haughty. I say that because I used to be that teen, with loads of knowledge and very little real wisdom regarding how to use it -- and I talked much the way you do.
BUT -- I also wish sometimes that I'd had the sense to listen when someone passed along a nugget of gold, because it would have put me miles ahead of a race I had to slog through the hard way.
As Spork said wonderingly -- do you even human? I know her some outside these forums, and she's got a delicious brain, so when she asks something like that I figure you're either being purposely obtuse (as a kid would), or there are some serious misfires going on upstairs, a hamster wheel that goes nowhere despite rapid spinning.
In the event you really DO wonder why I would try not to be that guy, and really believe it's me "running from the truth," here ya go:
I'm a man. I spent much of life as a boy, far more than I should have, and I had to learn a lot of stuff the hard way.
Truth: someone stuck in a wheelchair
Truth-by-effort: someone who doesn't allow that wheelchair to stop them from accomplishing what they want.
My truth isn't the only truth out there. There is a real world, and even if I don't agree with it there are things in that world that I WANT. They're not going to walk over to me meekly, letting me harness and pet them. I don't get to be Dinosaur Jesus unless I go out and lasso me a dinosaur.
I want relationships, and want them on certain terms. I've had to come to terms with my own terms, learn what I can and cannot do without in order to sustain MY VERSION of a healthy relationship.
Truth: I can be myself.
Truth-via-old-Korean-saying: A man must be equal to his times.
Truth-by-effort: If there are things I see hindering my interpersonal relationships I have choices:
-- A. I can accept these hindrances, learn to live with them uncompromisingly.
-- B. I can decide which things about myself are important, what I'm willing to change in pursuit of my goals, and what I'm not. I can exercise compromise.
He won't be able to handle this much adultitude, Sasquatch.
He won't be able to handle this much adultitude, Sasquatch.
Maybe not. Probably not. But ya know, the old man in me (not the freak in the trench coat who ignores a restraining order, the other one -- the one in my soul) figures give it a try, then walk away.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,974,024 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillennialUrbanist
Today, many marriages are loveless too. And prescription drug abuse is running rampant as well. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Yeah, I don't see loveless marriages around me. People I know mostly waited until adult hood and took their time finding the right person.
I do not have a single adult friend that I've known that got married post 30 and divorced, nor do I know any that isn't crazy about their spouse (I like their spouses as well). They chose well.
The notion that relationships are "supposed to be hard work" is a Blue Pill trope that just won't die. And it seems gendered: I've heard only of men getting force-fed that trope. Women seem exempt from it.
I bought into it with my first girlfriend (year 2001, lasting 3 months or so), and accepted it as par for the course. I invested tremendous amounts of time and effort into maintaining the relationship. Even though she was a nice person, I didn't feel like she appreciated the work I did. Plus, she didn't want to try any places or events I found, and using the plain HTML internet of the time to boot. As a result, I didn't enjoy having her as my girlfriend. I found the "hard work" a lot more than I bargained for, and it felt like a cat-and-mouse game. More often than not, after dates with her, I was going home, thinking to myself: "WTF? Is this how it's supposed to be?" Well, I got my first kiss, and had a guaranteed date for events, but those were the only things that made the relationship worth my while.
My later relationships were quite pleasant, albeit lasting less than a year. My latest one, a little over 2 years long, ending in 2013, not so much. She didn't treat me very well, and the main reasons I stayed with her as long as I did, were: (1) idea of loyalty, (2) social pressure to settle down by age 30, and (3) "knowing" that most serious relationships involve a man getting treated poorly, anyway. Like with my first girlfriend, I liked having a guaranteed date for events. But I knew something was wrong, when the parts of our dates I started to enjoy most was dropping her off at the end.
Before someone else conveniently points it out, I acknowledge that the common denominator was me . Serves me right for being overly submissive and not understanding the dynamics between sexes. Now I know better. The lesson I learned is this: if you're not smiling at least 9 out of 10 times after a date with someone---sex or no sex---it's not worth keeping them in your life, and a breakup is in order.
You only see YOUR hard work because that's what you have access to. You're convinced that you are easy and effortless to be with so your GF needs do NOTHING and is only reaping the benefits of YOUR hard work.
Not likely...but if it is true then obviously there are issues and if those issues are too big, you in fact will break up and try again.
But don't twist it and say that being with you requires absolutely no effort and all other women require an inordinate amount of it because that is absolutely wrong. All relationships require a certain amount of effort - very little a lot of the time, some at other times, and a lot hopefully a minimal amount of time during very limited "crises".
If you don't want to deal with it - then get out and stay out of all relationships - but don't act as though the benefits can't outweigh the effort for most people - just not you.
I see what you mean. The 50's were indeed a "wholesome" time in our society. Heck, Cards Against Humanity didn't exist, and would be considered highly scandalous if it did. But still, in the 50's, spouses weren't required to be joined at the hip at all times. Social networks of friends and neighbors (not social media networks) were strong, as opposed making your spouse your be-all and end-all.
Meh. I don't really expect my wife to support me or "lift me up". It's like playing chess and expecting your opponent to help you with your game. Like I mentioned earlier, I see marriage as a proverbial chess game, and I'm always thinking ahead, to avoid getting checkmated.
Speaking of which, if relationships are indeed "hard" (for which partner? ), why do people even bother with them? Work is hard. Financial planning is hard. Why do people complicate their lives even further? Are we masochists or just scared of going against the norm?
By reading these three sad paragraphs, I can tell that you know nothing about relationships.
Actually, I'll go one step further: By clinging to really misguided theories, you know less than nothing. You are not at zero. You are instead operating on the negative end of the scale and, if you keep clinging to this weird belief system, it will affect your ability to enjoy a healthy relationship in the years to come.
Let's begin. Chess game? Really? The first rule of ethical relationships: Never play games with someone's heart. If you actually buy into the proposition that your partner is an opponent, then prepare to be defeated every time. Not by the other person, but by yourself.
Instead, the entire chess game analogy reveals a manipulative approach to relationships that is, quite frankly, a bit unsavory. So allow me to correct you. There are no winners or losers in a relationship unless you win and lose together. And if you are so terrified of life that you live in a perpetual state of vigilance, mapping out your actions and words like the Sicilian Defense, then just don't bother. You will wind up being misery to whatever poor woman actually thinks you're worth her time.
Courage is the foundation of all happiness. If you lack the courage to trust another person and act accordingly in thought, word, and deed, then go live in a monastery. Or connect up with the other perpetual clueless sad sacks on this board and live together in a big condominium in Florida. There, you can all sit around and nurse half-baked theories about women and relationships. It won't be happiness. But at least, confined to your gloomy little reservation, it means you won't be out there destroying the happiness of others.
Second, your notion about the 50s as a time of marital bliss is flat-out dumb. It seems to be gleaned from reruns of Leave It To Beaver on Nick at Nite. It was no more a happy-clappy time of marital bliss than today. In fact, it was less so. Divorce wasn't nearly the option that it is today, and diminished career opportunities for women meant they didn't have many options to leave a marriage. I mean, since you want to play amateur sociologist, go talk to some elderly women who were indeed on the losing end of bad marriages in that time period.
Back to the original question. A relationship is not work in the sense of sweat and toil. It is work in the sense of doing something you deeply enjoy. If you enjoy playing a musical instrument, then practice is work but not work. If you enjoy writing, then writing is work but not work. See the difference?
Last edited by MinivanDriver; 04-04-2018 at 08:33 AM..
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), why do people even bother with them? Work is hard. Other parts of life are hard. Why do people complicate their lives even further? Are we masochists or just scared of going against the norm?
is a Blue Pill trope that just won't die. And it seems gendered: I've heard only of men getting force-fed that trope. Women seem exempt from it.
