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I just happen to believe sex was not created or intended to be abused this way. And if people don't have the moral compass to get that, then perhaps the potential for disease and death by AIDS will at least give them pause to reflect on the wisdom of engaging in such behavior.
In the end, we are each responsible for our own actions, and we will be called to account for them.
Indeed.
I'm just having trouble with the irony -- a guy at work could be charged with sexual harassment if he complimented a female coworker's clothing but, if he joined a swingers' club and the same woman was there, he could happily have sex with her without any problem? We protect people from being treated as sex objects so that they can pay to be sex objects on their own time? Heh.
Each individual in this life is responsible for the right formation of their own conscience. Some people take this responsiblity more seriously than others.
Unfortunately, in my experience, what they take more seriously is their belief that they have a responsibility for the formation of everyone else's conscience... through legislation, through lectures on morality, through fear-based education, through violence... "by whatever means necessary, for the good of all..."
See, I actually like you... I respect the way you state your beliefs the majority of the time. I don't really care for the little "we'll all answer for this some day" line that creeps in from time to time, but in general, I've found that you're pretty good about saying "this is what I believe, what is right for my life... your mileage may vary." It's why I asked you the question to begin with... because I find you give much more insightful answers than many who believe we all someday answer to a higher authority. I find you interesting and intelligent. As I said...I like you.
I'm just having trouble with the irony -- a guy at work could be charged with sexual harassment if he complimented a female coworker's clothing but, if he joined a swingers' club and the same woman was there, he could happily have sex with her without any problem? We protect people from being treated as sex objects so that they can pay to be sex objects on their own time? Heh.
That's not the way it works. It's not like people get to have sex with anybody they see at the club.
I'm just having trouble with the irony -- a guy at work could be charged with sexual harassment if he complimented a female coworker's clothing but, if he joined a swingers' club and the same woman was there, he could happily have sex with her without any problem?We protect people from being treated as sex objects so that they can pay to be sex objects on their own time? Heh.
Actually, that's what's great about this country and is exactly what we should do, IMO.
Of course, I'm not talking about sex only, but this applies to everything adults choose to do in life.
I'm just having trouble with the irony -- a guy at work could be charged with sexual harassment if he complimented a female coworker's clothing but, if he joined a swingers' club and the same woman was there, he could happily have sex with her without any problem? We protect people from being treated as sex objects so that they can pay to be sex objects on their own time? Heh.
There's no irony to that. One is an unwanted and uninvited advance, the other is an invited and mutually consenting opportunity... assuming she says yes (or that HE says yes... as women are just as likely to make the first move as the men are at these clubs).
As for "protecting people from being treated as sex objects"... what someone does on their personal time in their consensual relationships is just that. It has no bearing or relation to appropriate behavior in the workplace. A woman or man may be a complete wanton sl*t within their monogamous marriage at home... eager, willing, adventurous, even downright kinky. That doesn't negate their absolute right to be protected from some idiot on the job who thinks that by virtue of their gender or appearance, they are sexually fair game.
There's a time and place for everything.
Your argument is akin to saying that a woman who wears skimpy clothes is inviting rape... after all, we go through all this trouble to protect women from rapists, and then the darn things have the audacity to wear sexually stimulating clothing. How dare they!
Unfortunately, in my experience, what they take more seriously is their belief that they have a responsibility for the formation of everyone else's conscience... through legislation, through lectures on morality, through fear-based education, through violence... "by whatever means necessary, for the good of all..."
See, I actually like you... I respect the way you state your beliefs the majority of the time. I don't really care for the little "we'll all answer for this some day" line that creeps in from time to time, but in general, I've found that you're pretty good about saying "this is what I believe, what is right for my life... your mileage may vary." It's why I asked you the question to begin with... because I find you give much more insightful answers than many who believe we all someday answer to a higher authority. I find you interesting and intelligent. As I said...I like you.
Actually, I like you too Wingsy If I have given you the impression I am judging you or your lifestyle then I apologize.
My comments are actually aimed at those like our OP who might be on the fence about the right choices for their lives. (and by right, I mean correct for them, not right by my standards).
I never forget that this forum is read my thousands of people every day - some of whom are young and searching for who they really are, even a lot of impressionable teenagers. In light of that, I do believe it is important on subjects like this to present a balanced view. I posted to present the opposing view to provide that balance.
You and I may have different views on right, wrong, moral etc...when it comes to this subject, but that does not prevent me from respecting your right to make those choices. Basically, your mind is made up - you are comfortable with your choices - same here Neither of us is going to change the other persons mind, but that's okay - people don't have to be in complete agreement with everything I believe for me to like them or respect them.
There's no irony to that. One is an unwanted and uninvited advance, the other is an invited and mutually consenting opportunity... assuming she says yes (or that HE says yes... as women are just as likely to make the first move as the men are at these clubs).
As for "protecting people from being treated as sex objects"... what someone does on their personal time in their consensual relationships is just that. It has no bearing to appropriate behavior in the workplace. A woman or man may be a complete wanton sl*t within their monogamous marriage at home... eager, willing, adventurous, even downright kinky. That doesn't negate their absolute right to be protected from some idiot on the job who thinks that by virtue of their gender or appearance, they are sexually fair game.
There's a time and place for everything.
Your argument is akin to saying that a woman who wears skimpy clothes is inviting rape... after all, we go through all this trouble to protect women from rapists, and then the darn things have the audacity to wear sexually stimulating clothing. How dare they!
Nope. I'm saying that we go to great lengths to provide a very sterile society that permits no warmth or personal contact because it could "offend." (When did we actually get to the point where a compliment or a consoling hug could be deemed risky or offensive?) But we have NO problem with these otherwise easily offended people having sex with complete strangers because it's their "choice" and they're paying for it. Gotta love capitalism!
Those of us who aren't easily offended by hugs and compliments have no choice, though. We're stuck with the day in-day out sterility. Thanks!
Oh, and your "rape" argument makes no sense at all. Protecting people from violent crime (and one of power, not sexuality) is vastly different from protecting someone from a compliment or platonic hug.
Oh, and your "rape" argument makes no sense at all. Protecting people from violent crime (and one of power, not sexuality) is vastly different from protecting someone from a compliment or platonic hug.
Only quoting this most recent one... but this is in response to both posts. There's a world of difference between sexual harassment in the work place and consensual behavior between adults in a social/personal environment.
I do get what you're saying about a sterile environment... and actually, I don't much care for it either. Having been a firefighter, and the only female in my station house, there were a LOT of assumptions made about how I should have felt sexually harassed by things the guys did/said. People were often confounded by the fact that I didn't feel that way at all... and then, of course, tried to imply there must be something wrong with me that I wasn't getting offended left and right.
So I think the sterility thing can (and sometimes is) taken too far.
But that's a far cry from drawing a correlation between behavior at a social club focused on sex, and invading personal space or boundaries in a professional work environment.
Incidentally, sexual harassment, just like rape... isn't about sex... it's about power. The harassment laws were originally written to protect employees from being manipulated into accepting unprofessional advances from those in a position of authority over them. They have somehow morphed into being applied across the board... co-workers, equals, can have their behavior defined as sexual harassment under the laws now. What I want to know is when in the heck we all became so weak and unable to stand up for ourselves... when did we lose the ability to say to a peer/equal, "dude, back off"?
I've never had a problem saying "I'm not interested," and considering how many people make massively false assumptions about my level of promiscuity based on the fact that I have a husband and a boyfriend, it's something that comes up a lot.
I am so thoroughly enjoying Wingsy's posts. I don't know, but I don't think I could have a boyfriend or be comfortable with my husband having a girlfriend. It has nothing to do with sex with others, it's the relationship aspect. But I have to tell you, Wingsy, I'm loving it. I am getting such a kick out of your point of view! I have several friends in poly arrangements and I so enjoy watching them all together, it's like I've added a new quad. We DO have to arrange to get together after we move.
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We protect people from being treated as sex objects so that they can pay to be sex objects on their own time? Heh.
