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Old 10-04-2011, 11:33 PM
 
2 posts, read 2,786 times
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Faith is to believe despite evidence in something. Usually, when it comes to religion the something ends up being something quite important. Something we live our lives around and plan around. Something that influences perhaps not our everyday decisions but perhaps the big and important ones. (How we deal with the death of loved ones, how we tell someone we love we want to be committed etc)

Faith is powerful stuff. Have you ever considered one of Dawkin's arguments on faith? He says in his book that religion teaches it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding but I feel not all religions do that. I feel he is talking about faith and with that understanding let me quote a passage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawkins
Chapter 8, one of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding. Admissions of ignorance and temporary mystification are vital to good science. It is therefore unfortunate, to say the least, that the main strategy of creation propagandists is the negative one of seeking out gaps in scientific knowledge and claiming to fill them with 'intelligent design' by default.
If faith teaches us to be satisfied without understanding or any factual evidence could that not be a harmful concept to teach?

If we consider 9/11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawkins again
Suicide bombers do what they do because they really believe what they were taught in their religious schools: that duty to God exceeds all other priorities, and that martyrdom in his service will be rewarded in the gardens of Paradise.
I am not implying it is always harmful. If we look at some other things we sometimes take on faith... IE Fire is hot and will burn you if you touch it... My question is actually not all that complicated.

Are we subverting a seemingly benevolent and protective thought process to allow us to rationalize and justify hatred?

Obviously this is not always the case... but unquestioned faithfulness... The idea that if you believe something so strongly and so emotionally that evidence is not needed or even allowed to color your beliefs seems like it could on occasion be immoral.

I realize Dawkins is a noted anti-theist but he admits in the same book to believing in a god of sorts... Perhaps not a personal god... but this particular idea he has seems to have some substance worth discussing.
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Old 10-05-2011, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
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People do stupid and harmful things to themselves and other because of all sorts of things. For example: money, sex, political power, social status, education, scientific discovery, etc. Religion gets a bad rep over all these things because it is such a widespread concept. There are hundreds of religions that one can choose.

I honesty don't think religion is harmful, people are! Religion doesn't kill people, stupid people without regard to others kill people in the name of religion. If someone went on a killing spree in the name of our president you wouldn't blame the president, you blame the mane. If a man kills to gain money, you blame the man not the money. But, for some reason when someone kills in the name of religion, you blame the religion, and sometimes all religions take the rap for a few peoples disregard for life.

So do we blame religion or hold the individual accountable? In a court of law you hold the men accountable. In the court of man you hold the religion accountable. Do you see the problem here? Stop blaming religion, blame the person who does things in the name of religion.
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 12,502,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raison_d'etre View Post
People do stupid and harmful things to themselves and other because of all sorts of things. For example: money, sex, political power, social status, education, scientific discovery, etc. Religion gets a bad rep over all these things because it is such a widespread concept. There are hundreds of religions that one can choose.

I honesty don't think religion is harmful, people are! Religion doesn't kill people, stupid people without regard to others kill people in the name of religion. If someone went on a killing spree in the name of our president you wouldn't blame the president, you blame the mane. If a man kills to gain money, you blame the man not the money. But, for some reason when someone kills in the name of religion, you blame the religion, and sometimes all religions take the rap for a few peoples disregard for life.

So do we blame religion or hold the individual accountable? In a court of law you hold the men accountable. In the court of man you hold the religion accountable. Do you see the problem here? Stop blaming religion, blame the person who does things in the name of religion.
True. I agree with you fully. We alone are responsible for are actions. We can not blame any source for the actions a person takes, unless the actions are done under strong duress. To blame a religion or anything for a person's actions, is removing personal responsibility for their actions. the bottom line a person does what they do because they want to and it is their own choice.
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:23 AM
 
Location: Venice Italy
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sometimes ppl are unable to drive themself in evil actions, so they are not guilty
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:32 AM
 
Location: the future
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Default boredatwork

What you're talking about is a strong conviction or belief...Faith in truth never is a bad thing. Consider faith is the only thing we need for salvation. Faith is believing without seeing.
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:43 AM
 
6,039 posts, read 9,209,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boreatwork View Post
What you're talking about is a strong conviction or belief...Faith in truth never is a bad thing. Consider faith is the only thing we need for salvation. Faith is believing without seeing.
Faith is always a bad thing. It promotes and celebrates ignorance and complacency in people. Complacency to live in ignorance and fear. Complacency about other people being oppressed. Complacency about children starving to death. Faith means believing in something for which there is absolutely no evidence, and taking pride in the fact that you're being deliberately ignorant.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:32 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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the whole "fire is hot" idea, i learned from induction. still it might be true that sometimes getting lucky with faith(happening to believe the truth even though there isnt overwhelming evidence) might be a good thing, as good luck often is. then again, you could get unlucky and believe in the wrong thing. the scientific processes of induction and apllication should be used to test faiths
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:49 AM
 
6,249 posts, read 9,650,692 times
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The downside of faith?

The biggest downside is the potential "let down". I personally have many beliefs, but if all of them were proven wrong, life goes on for me. The God-belief however is VERY different. God is almost like an adult version of "my imaginary friend" (yet the connection to this friend is the core of most people's being). Take that friend away (be it through science, or new evidence about our reality) and many folks will be lost. Losing one's faith can be a very painful thing; sometimes more painful than losing a loved one to death. I honestly pity most theists, but I don't judge them. I see them as being the victims rather than the villians. When one is taught something from birth until death (like a first language) breaking out of that indoctrination is just NOT realistic for many. It would go against everything that was taught to them.

If you take away that foundation of self too drastically, it could lead to a person's self destruction. In time, we will outgrow theism as a species. The search for "God" (or higher beings than ourselves) won't ever stop IMO, but theism (as we know it) will end.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar View Post
Faith is always a bad thing. It promotes and celebrates ignorance and complacency in people. Complacency to live in ignorance and fear. Complacency about other people being oppressed. Complacency about children starving to death. Faith means believing in something for which there is absolutely no evidence, and taking pride in the fact that you're being deliberately ignorant.
Faith is believing in something without asking for anything in return. It's another term for trust. Have you ever said to someone that you have faith in them? How about you trust them? No difference. When it comes to religion, they are simply saying they trust their (belief) won't let them down.

Having faith is not living in ignorance and fear. Quite the opposite actually. When you believe in something it releases most fears. I don't live in fear and I have faith in many things. I have faith in mankind, I have faith in my beliefs, I have faith in my family, friends, and loved ones. I have faith that I will wake up tomorrow and every day following until the time I die. Mostly, I have faith in myself.

How does faith have anything to do with children starving? Most churches and religious people donate food, time, and money to help fight hunger. Can't say the same for the average Joe Schmo out there. Religions encourage people to help.

Religions also help fight oppression. Sadly there are religions that still oppress people and they are the ones getting the spot light. STOP TAKING THE ACTIONS OF A FEW AS THE MESSAGE OF ALL.

Faith means believing or having trust in something you hold dear. One of my favorite quotes is from Firefly when Shepard say, "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in it." Belief or faith gives people hope, it gives them courage, a drive to move forward. How is this a bad thing?
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
The downside of faith?

The biggest downside is the potential "let down". I personally have many beliefs, but if all of them were proven wrong, life goes on for me. The God-belief however is VERY different. God is almost like an adult version of "my imaginary friend" (yet the connection to this friend is the core of most people's being). Take that friend away (be it through science, or new evidence about our reality) and many folks will be lost. Losing one's faith can be a very painful thing; sometimes more painful than losing a loved one to death. I honestly pity most theists, but I don't judge them. I see them as being the victims rather than the villians. When one is taught something from birth until death (like a first language) breaking out of that indoctrination is just NOT realistic for many. It would go against everything that was taught to them.

If you take away that foundation of self too drastically, it could lead to a person's self destruction. In time, we will outgrow theism as a species. The search for "God" (or higher beings than ourselves) won't ever stop IMO, but theism (as we know it) will end.
I don't think theism is going anywhere. Why? Because it has been around since man has been around. Religions come and go, Gods fade into myth, but a new one is always born.
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