News, Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard (Christian, Christ, Earth)

[KatieGal]

Originally Posted by TWD39

What would you say is the most problematic concept of Christianity? As for why God doesn't just come down and talk to us, you have to understand it from a spiritual perspective since God is a spiritual being. One reason He can't just simply reveal Himself fully to humans is our limited minds could not handle it all at once. It would be like trying to teach a baby advanced calculus. You must grow first through a process of salvation and then learning through faith.

Also sin basically acts like a barrier or signal jammer that prevents God from interacting with man. Now born again Christians who are not living in sin certainly hear from God. And He often tells them to do things they don't want to do. Now why would someone's imagination do such a thing?

See, you buy into what you say, but I do not. I am not saying that a god would suddenly just start speaking to us. I'm saying that since the beginning of mankind god could have been upfront and involved in a personal manner, a hands-on god. He would be like a true devoted "father". An imagined god would be one that would be supported by a lot of vague reasons why he could not be hands-on and in fact be invisible with no evidence of his existence. An imagined god would be backed with a lot of ambiguous properties that, oddly, would be understood, and spoken, by only a few mortal individuals (me not being one of them).

A large percentage of atheists at one time believed in a similar manner to your way of thinking, that is, they did not understand the elusive facets of god, but they just went along with them anyway. Then critical thinking got in the way and these people could simply no longer go along with the program. That is the reason why far more believers become atheists rather than the other way around. Once a concept is dismissed based on the evidence (or lack thereof), it is rarely restored without new, overturning evidence. And it's been a long time since there has been any significant new evidence appear, including any claim for an ark.

[DentalFloss]

Originally Posted by TWD39

I made it clear why I don't put blind faith in modern science.

Nor should you. Blind faith, in anything is foolish. Even professional working scientists don't put blind faith in science, modern or otherwise. But what they do that you don't is accept evidence.

As a result you believe things are true that are not. But, eh, that's your problem. If you enjoy being ignorant, be ignorant, it's no skin of my nose.

[Cosmicstargoat]

Originally Posted by PanTerra

Springs of the Deep? Here is the Biblical map of the world showing where the deep is.

Here's a map of Middle Earth. Your move.

[PanTerra]

Originally Posted by Cosmicstargoat

Here's a map of Middle Earth. Your move.

It opens today!

[Cosmicstargoat]

Originally Posted by PanTerra

It opens today!

From what I read it's a real stinker, but I'm sure the fanboys will adore it.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by TWD39

I believe in a literal Genesis, a living Savior, and a real enemy known as Satan who has you so brainwashed. He's laughing and loving your attacks on Christianity.

Think I'm full of it?

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by TWD39

Answer this, if God was truly real, would you bow down and serve Him, or give Him the finger and go to hell instead?

I would slay him where he stood.

One cannot go to a place that never existed.

Originally Posted by TWD39

Really, so you accounted for the springs of the deep too?


Genesis 7:11


n the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.

I guess you existed back then so you know exactly what that volume was then in the springs of the deep, huh?

Originally Posted by TWD39

Scientists logically predicted that the solar flares would cause our electronics to malfunction. Guess what, it didn't happen.

And there's a reason why it didn't happen; a scientific reason.

A solar flare will destroy 2/3 of the Northern Hemisphere. It will happen. If you are 30 and under, there's a very strong probability it will happen in your life-time.

But not just any solar flare --- only a certain class of solar flares. There are four classes and the one(s) that are newsworthy are the X-Class Solar Flares. If you follow the space weather stuff, when you hear X-Class you need to be paying attention; if you hear the X-Class is greater than or equal to an X15 Solar Flare, you need to be concerned; if this >X15 Class Solar Flare is also accompanied by a proton storm, you need go into panic mode; and if the proton storm is one where the average energy of the protons is greater than or equal to 30 MeV (Million Electron Volts) then you got about 8 to 22 minutes to contact your family members and tell them to immediately initiate whatever emergency plans you have --- because after that you won't ever use anything electronic for the rest of your life --- which might only be about 30 minutes.

This is already December, so if it happened tomorrow, 300 Million Americans would be dead within 4-6 months.

Canadians would do better, perhaps 5 Million might survive. 95% of Western Europeans would be dead. Eastern Europe would fare much better, with about 50% surviving.

X-Class Solar Flares with massive proton storms are known to take place shortly after the Sun leaves a "Solar Minimum."

It is widely believed that the Sun is in a Solar Minimum right now.

What is this?

It's called electromagnetic pulse. It's know to occur when detonating a nuclear warhead. It is well-documented.

If you detonated a 400 kiloton nuclear warhead 30 miles above Knoxville, Tennessee, gammas and x-rays would ionize the atmosphere asymmetrically, and neutrons would strike the Earth's surface creating a "circuit" with sufficient electrical energy to "fry" transistors, capacitors and microchips.

The entire US East Coast, and even Canada, from about Toronto south to Cuba and from Virginia west to about Kansas would be electronically destroyed.

The fact that your desktop is plugged into a surge protector matters not; it is the air that is ionized with the electromagnetic charge, not the power lines (although they will be overloaded as well).

For a Solar EMP Event, the Sun substitutes for the nuclear warhead; instead of gammas and [low energy] x-rays you have high energy x-rays; in lieu of neutrons you have protons; and the x-rays will ionize the atmosphere asymmetrically while the protons strike Earth and create the "circuit."

I'm not sure what you read, but I would venture to guess it wasn't explained very well.

Originally Posted by TWD39

Again, unless you witnessed a global flood in person, you are merely taking an educated guess on how the physics would operate and what kind of evidence should have been left behind. A GUESS. This does not equate to indisputable proof that it never happened.

It isn't required to witness anything in person to explain things according to physics and natural sciences. No one has ever seen a neutron strike and split a uranium or plutonium nucleus, yet we know it happens.

I did not personally witness the detonation of nuclear weapon over Hiroshima, but I can reconstruct the event using physics.

I did not personally witness a small asteroid striking an area about 30 miles south of Winslow, Arizona, but I can use physics to reconstruct the event.

Originally Posted by TWD39

Then why are you even on here discussing? It's obvious that there is no way you would ever entertain the notion that the event really occured.

On the contrary....I personally believe Earth was devastated by a tsunami that occurred sometime between 10,000 BCE and 8,000 BCE, and that this event is the basis for all so-called erroneously named "Flood Myths."

My beliefs are supported by a cornucopia of physical and testimonial evidence, that is growing with more evidence with each passing year.

The Hebrew version of the "Flood Myth" is based on an actual event, but the Hebrew version is factually incorrect.

Originally Posted by TWD39

That's not even the point. THe point is their stories share striking similiarities to the Bible.

You have it backwards.......the Hebrew version shares striking similarities with older more accurate stories.

Originally Posted by TWD39

Have you ever witnessed a global flood?

It doesn't matter if I have or have not, because no global flood ever took place.



Ooops.

Originally Posted by DentalFloss

Now, it may in fact be the ultimate source of the myth of Noah and his ark, but that doesn't for a moment change the fact that it's a myth.

Well, no, the Hebrew version is taken from the Sumerian version which dates the Deluge to the Age of Leo --- 10,000 BCE to 8,000 BCE --- and that is consistent with physical, geological and archaeological evidence.

Originally Posted by wrcousert

This whole flood concept makes no sense at all. If I was an all powerful god that wanted to kill all except a handful of people and animals, I'd just smite them. Why bother with the ark?

Why do you think?

Why isn't the Temple adorned with diamonds, platinum, palladium and other precious metals?

Because humans did not know they existed----- and it was humans that wrote the texts and created the deities.

The powers that deities have are limited to the powers that humans have knowledge of.

What would a truly all-powerful god have done?

Killed off all evil people with a mere thought.

Except humans then couldn't grasp the concept of killing people with thoughts -- the idea did not exist in human minds -- and to the best of my knowledge, the ability to kill large numbers of people with a single thought isn't introduced into literature until the 20th Century.

What are the limitations of any writer? Their own imagination, right?

As a writer, in order for me to write about extra-terrestrials arriving on Earth in space-ships, I first have to have the mental faculties and capacity to imagine that humanoid beings can live and exist outside of Earth, and that they are capable of flight, and that they are capable of inter-planetary flight (at the very least) or inter-stellar flight.

The texts are written from a very ethnocentric point of view. Look at the so-called Battle of Armageddon. What does that tell you? It tells you god is too stupid to understand Soviet/Russian military tactical doctrine and strategy. Of course, that doesn't say much since the US didn't even have a clue about Soviet/Russian tactical doctrine until 1976.

Anyway, the point is that no modern army would wage war in or near Armageddon -- too bad the Yahweh-Jesus-Casper-the-not-always-Friendly-Ghost thing can't figure that out.

Originally Posted by TWD39

And if the ark itself was discovered perfectly intact, you skeptics would still smugly claim that it doesn't prove anything.

You don't want to find the Ark......never....ever.

Because, you know, if you, find the Ark, it will be exactly as the Sumerians described it, and nothing even remotely resembling how the Hebrews described it, and that will only serve to further damage both christianity and Judaism.

Originally Posted by TWD39

Skeptics are the narrow minded ones. You will accept ANY evidence without question if it goes against the Bible.

And do you accept the evidence that proves the Exodus never happened?

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Antarctic Ice cores date between 400k and 730k.....

Uh, that is true of the eastern ice sheet.....the most common date given is about ~400,000 years.

However, the western ice sheet is less than 10,000 years old. It is confirmed that in recent geologic history, at some point no more than 10,000 year ago, there was no ice in western Antarctica --- it was stripped away or rapidly melted.

Originally Posted by mikebnllnb

A link to a plethora of reasons why the global flood/ark story could NOT have occurred as depicted in the Bible is below.

That would be close to the correct and proper phraseology that accurately describes history.

Hebrew version is not plausible, but of the 140+ "Flood Myth" all are plausible.

If you want to nit-pick, of the 140+ plus "Flood Myths", about 2/3 are factually plausible and the reason that the 1/3 are not factually plausible is that they attribute the event to an angry deity or as some form of punishment. If you omit that, then all are plausible.

Originally Posted by Fiyero

Yes, actually we can. Catastrophic events leave behind evidence from their occurrence. When such evidence is not only absent, but directly contradicts what we do find, we can safely say said event never happened as described.

The Noah story cannot be referring to the entire known planet. For one, it's an impossible event and has left not a single shred of evidence that it occurred. And two, why would the Ancient Israelites claim the entire planet flooded, when the only part of the planet they knew existed was Mesopotamia? They didn't know there was such a thing as Australia, or Antarctica, or North America. Those were non-existent to them. The perceived size of the world in Biblical days was exponentially smaller than it is today.

Actually, there's a boat-load of evidence that is growing by leaps and bounds every year.

This evidence does not support the Hebrew version of the event, but it does support all other claims.

Only the Hebrews claim it was a "flood."

The evidence all other cultures provide is that it was a global tsunami.

A lot of the problems stem from the fact that neither christians nor Jews have a clue what they're reading, as evidenced by the fact that there was no "Flood" rather there was a Deluge -- and it isn't just semantics -- all floods are deluges but not all deluges are floods.

The second error stems from the mistranslation of tĕhowm --- remember that Hebrew is just the Ugaritic dialect of Canaanite Aramaic without the case endings --- even so, tĕhowm is a Sumerian/Akkadian loan-word and not of Canaanite/Aramaic origin.

However, the connotation is of waves crashing. The literal translation is "wave after wave without ceasing..." (see Psalm 33, Psalm 42, Psalm 78 and Exodus 15 for examples).

That is neither a flood nor heavy rains, but it perfectly describes a series of tsunamis sweeping back and forth across the globe.

And, that is what all of the accounts of the 140+ that describe the duration claim as well, because they put the duration at 3 days to 6 days --- and the 4-5 accounts that claim 6 days actually say it lasted 5 days and the waters receded or ebbed on by the 6th day.

More telling is the difference in the accounts -- in the Western Hemisphere there is mention of an Ice Star, Water Comet, Water Rock, Flaming Arrow, Green Star and so on while no such descriptions occur in accounts from the Eastern Hemisphere.

Two different events?

Nope, same even, different perspectives --- it is a matter of science and physics that someone in the Eastern Hemisphere could not possibly see something that people in the Western Hemisphere could --- thus the difference in accounts.





Those impacts are dated to the Age of Leo, just like the Sumerians said.

I would recommend that people start reading peer reviewed science and the theories of Richard Firestone of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. There are 10 sites representing early man -- Clovis and pre-Clovis cultures---- containing spheroidal metals and nano diamonds in a layer of sediment dating 12,900 years ago. And these sites cover an area of some 70 percent of the continental U.S. Obviously burning material rained down on both man and beast, fires raged across the continent reducing food sources for any surviving life forms and effectively bringing the end to a greater part of mammalian life.

That is why all the great mammals like mastodons, mammoths, the saber-toothed tiger, the giant sloth, the giant bear et al died off in North America.

It is now widely believed that these impacts were caused by either a comet/asteroid that broke up in space and struck Earth just like Shoemaker-Levy hit Jupiter, or it broke apart entering Earth's atmosphere.

Those impacts not only caused the mass extinction there at the Pliocene-Holocene Boundary, but also impacts in the oceans caused tsunamis that killed lots of people --- but not every one --- and are the true source of the Deluge Stories from around the world.

You all might want to go look at satellite and space shuttle photos of ghost beaches --- huge deposits of sand high up in the Himalayas, the Rockies, the Andes and elsewhere.

And no, it's not just glacial erosion -- sorry, baby, this tons of sand in the form of cubic kilometers and not organic to its location -- the sand in the Himalayas ought to be full of thorium, just like the beaches of southeastern India, but it isn't, because that sand does not come from anywhere on the Indian sub-continent or the Eurasian Plate.

Originally Posted by TWD39

For one thing, you are assuming the ancient world looked and operated the exact same as our modern day world.

That's a valid criticism. I made that criticism myself repeatedly.





That's what they Persian Gulf looked like 12,000 years ago.

Furthermore, I have yet to see a skeptic give a satisfactory answer as to why the flood story exists in almost every ancient culture around the world. [/quote]

I have.

Originally Posted by Sco

As other posters have already pointed out, the OP's link actually does more to dispel the Noah's Ark/global flood myth than anything else.

If you really want to look for evidence that the bible global flood story is true, you would not be looking near Turkey alone. If someone can find evidence of a global flood that occurred simultaneously in the Middle East, North America, Australia and Antarctica you might have something to work with.

There is evidence. In your life-time, like in the next 20 years, it will be known that a cataclysmic event of cosmic origin caused both the extinction of large mammals and caused global tsunamis that are the basis for the Deluge events in numerous cultures on six different continents.

The Gobi Desert is just one piece of the puzzle; so are the ghost beaches up in the mountains, so are the mass graves of animals along with various flora and fauna and numerous other pieces of evidence.

Originally Posted by TWD39

I love how atheists perfectly accept archaeology as proof of ancient events EXCEPT when it supports the Bible.

I do believe we've discussed that before.....I love how christians perfectly accept archeology as proof oft he "Bible" except when archaeology refutes their claims -- like the Exodus.....the Israelites did not destroy 16 cities as claimed.....sorry.

Originally Posted by TWD39

Which doesn't prove anything really. The oral tradition of the Biblical story (which is more detailed and plausible) could have existed before Gilgamesh...

But it didn't, and such an oral tradition would have been in Akkadian -- since that is what Abrahm spoke --- and then in Canaanite and then in the Ugaritic Dialect and then in Hebrew. As you can plainly see, such tales get lost in translation.

The biblical story is neither detailed nor plausible, and where it does provide detail, it conflicts....

That there are both multiple writers and multiple sources of the Hebrew "Deluge" is proven:

P says that the flood lasted for almost one year (7:11, 7:24, 8:3, and 8:13).

J says that it lasted for forty days and forty nights (7:17).

P says that Noah sent a raven, while J says it was a dove, Genesis 8:7-8, while J has seven pairs of clean animals and two pair of unclean animals.

J stated that God smelled the sacrifices of Noah and it pleased Him, Genesis 8:21, but note that P cannot make such a statement, because P only claims that one pair of each animal was brought aboard, thus a sacrifice would have resulted in extinction of whatever species was sacrificed.

And how many people survived the "Flood?"

8 people plus the hundreds of Nephilim.

Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this).

Apparently either your god cannot kill the Nephilim, or they outwitted and out-smarted your god, because they were on the Earth before and after the "Flood."

So Noah and his sons were not the only ones that survived.

Originally Posted by TWD39

If you are going to compare the OT to other mythologies, at the very least, you need to present a mythology which contains detailed geneologies. Otherwise, the Bible is more historically realistic.

Detailed genealogies are irrelevant.

To the extent that detailed genealogies might be relevant, we have this....

Nehemiah 13:1 On that day the book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people. They found written in it that no Ammonite or Moabite may ever enter the assembly of God.

Ruth 4:13 So Boaz married Ruth and had sexual relations with her. The Lord enabled her to conceive and she gave birth to a son. 4:17 The neighbor women named him, saying, “A son has been born to Naomi.” They named him Obed. Now he became the father of Jesse – David’s father!

David cannot be in the assembly of god, because he is descended of Moabites.

Matthew 1:1 This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz (by Rahab), Boaz the father of Obed (by Ruth), Obed the father of Jesse, 1:6 and Jesse the father of David the king.

Jesus is descended of Moabites, because Jesus is descended of David who is a Moabite, and therefore Jesus cannot be in the assembly of god.

Logically then, Jesus cannot be god.

How do you get around that?

Simple.....the Doctrine of Virgin Birth.

If Mary immaculately conceives, then Joseph is out of the picture, and you can then get around the fact that Jesus is not allowed in the assembly of god --- Jesus wouldn't be allowed in Heaven.

That also explains something else....

Which came first, the genealogy of Jesus according to Matthew or the genealogy of Jesus according to Luke?

Matthew.

How do we know?

Luke is not aware of Nehemiah, but he is aware of Deuteronomy which bars Moabites and Ammonites for 10 generations, rather than all of those descended of Moabites (and Ammonites).

Matthew's gospel is written first.....but not by Matthew who was dead and gone already....but the writer is not familiar with Nehemiah or Deuteronomy, and he makes the mistake of showing Jesus descended of David who is a Moabite.

Luke's gospel is written next.....but not by Luke was also dead and gone.....and the writer is familiar with Deuteronomy, but not Nehemiah.

Accordingly, to get around the prohibition of 10 generations, the writer of Luke flip-flops the genealogies between David-Solomon---Joseph-Jesus and David-Nathan---Joseph-Jesus

Matthew says Jesus is descended from David through David's son Solomon, but Luke says Jesus is descended from David through David's son Nathan....a contradiction that christians conveniently ignore, because they cannot face reality.

So now later, someone who is familiar with Nehemiah points out that Jesus cannot be god or the son of god or sent by god since Jesus is forever banned from entering the assembly of god because Jesus is a Moabite.

And the "Virgin Birth" fixes that problem.

Someone started a great thread on Dr. Sopolsky's theory on Mental Illness and religion and there were short videos to watch -- it is most excellent and I highly recommend it.

Look at how the Yahweh-Jesus-Casper-the-not-always-Friendly-Ghost thing is totally obsessed with banal and trivial details on things like garments worn by priests and the adornment and decoration of the Temple and other things.....that makes no sense, unless you view it light of Mental Illness and an obsessive compulsive disorder, and that's also true of lots of rituals and other things.

Biblically....

Mircea

[TWD39]

Originally Posted by Mircea

Absolutely.



I would slay him where he stood.

One cannot go to a place that never existed.





And there's a reason why it didn't happen; a scientific reason.

A solar flare will destroy 2/3 of the Northern Hemisphere. It will happen. If you are 30 and under, there's a very strong probability it will happen in your life-time.

But not just any solar flare --- only a certain class of solar flares. There are four classes and the one(s) that are newsworthy are the X-Class Solar Flares. If you follow the space weather stuff, when you hear X-Class you need to be paying attention; if you hear the X-Class is greater than or equal to an X15 Solar Flare, you need to be concerned; if this >X15 Class Solar Flare is also accompanied by a proton storm, you need go into panic mode; and if the proton storm is one where the average energy of the protons is greater than or equal to 30 MeV (Million Electron Volts) then you got about 8 to 22 minutes to contact your family members and tell them to immediately initiate whatever emergency plans you have --- because after that you won't ever use anything electronic for the rest of your life --- which might only be about 30 minutes.

This is already December, so if it happened tomorrow, 300 Million Americans would be dead within 4-6 months.

Canadians would do better, perhaps 5 Million might survive. 95% of Western Europeans would be dead. Eastern Europe would fare much better, with about 50% surviving.

X-Class Solar Flares with massive proton storms are known to take place shortly after the Sun leaves a "Solar Minimum."

It is widely believed that the Sun is in a Solar Minimum right now.

What is this?

It's called electromagnetic pulse. It's know to occur when detonating a nuclear warhead. It is well-documented.

If you detonated a 400 kiloton nuclear warhead 30 miles above Knoxville, Tennessee, gammas and x-rays would ionize the atmosphere asymmetrically, and neutrons would strike the Earth's surface creating a "circuit" with sufficient electrical energy to "fry" transistors, capacitors and microchips.

The entire US East Coast, and even Canada, from about Toronto south to Cuba and from Virginia west to about Kansas would be electronically destroyed.

The fact that your desktop is plugged into a surge protector matters not; it is the air that is ionized with the electromagnetic charge, not the power lines (although they will be overloaded as well).

For a Solar EMP Event, the Sun substitutes for the nuclear warhead; instead of gammas and [low energy] x-rays you have high energy x-rays; in lieu of neutrons you have protons; and the x-rays will ionize the atmosphere asymmetrically while the protons strike Earth and create the "circuit."

I'm not sure what you read, but I would venture to guess it wasn't explained very well.



It isn't required to witness anything in person to explain things according to physics and natural sciences. No one has ever seen a neutron strike and split a uranium or plutonium nucleus, yet we know it happens.

I did not personally witness the detonation of nuclear weapon over Hiroshima, but I can reconstruct the event using physics.

I did not personally witness a small asteroid striking an area about 30 miles south of Winslow, Arizona, but I can use physics to reconstruct the event.




On the contrary....I personally believe Earth was devastated by a tsunami that occurred sometime between 10,000 BCE and 8,000 BCE, and that this event is the basis for all so-called erroneously named "Flood Myths."

My beliefs are supported by a cornucopia of physical and testimonial evidence, that is growing with more evidence with each passing year.

The Hebrew version of the "Flood Myth" is based on an actual event, but the Hebrew version is factually incorrect.



You have it backwards.......the Hebrew version shares striking similarities with older more accurate stories.



It doesn't matter if I have or have not, because no global flood ever took place.



Ooops.



Well, no, the Hebrew version is taken from the Sumerian version which dates the Deluge to the Age of Leo --- 10,000 BCE to 8,000 BCE --- and that is consistent with physical, geological and archaeological evidence.



Why do you think?

Why isn't the Temple adorned with diamonds, platinum, palladium and other precious metals?

Because humans did not know they existed----- and it was humans that wrote the texts and created the deities.

The powers that deities have are limited to the powers that humans have knowledge of.

What would a truly all-powerful god have done?

Killed off all evil people with a mere thought.

Except humans then couldn't grasp the concept of killing people with thoughts -- the idea did not exist in human minds -- and to the best of my knowledge, the ability to kill large numbers of people with a single thought isn't introduced into literature until the 20th Century.

What are the limitations of any writer? Their own imagination, right?

As a writer, in order for me to write about extra-terrestrials arriving on Earth in space-ships, I first have to have the mental faculties and capacity to imagine that humanoid beings can live and exist outside of Earth, and that they are capable of flight, and that they are capable of inter-planetary flight (at the very least) or inter-stellar flight.

The texts are written from a very ethnocentric point of view. Look at the so-called Battle of Armageddon. What does that tell you? It tells you god is too stupid to understand Soviet/Russian military tactical doctrine and strategy. Of course, that doesn't say much since the US didn't even have a clue about Soviet/Russian tactical doctrine until 1976.

Anyway, the point is that no modern army would wage war in or near Armageddon -- too bad the Yahweh-Jesus-Casper-the-not-always-Friendly-Ghost thing can't figure that out.



You don't want to find the Ark......never....ever.

Because, you know, if you, find the Ark, it will be exactly as the Sumerians described it, and nothing even remotely resembling how the Hebrews described it, and that will only serve to further damage both christianity and Judaism.



And do you accept the evidence that proves the Exodus never happened?



Uh, that is true of the eastern ice sheet.....the most common date given is about ~400,000 years.

However, the western ice sheet is less than 10,000 years old. It is confirmed that in recent geologic history, at some point no more than 10,000 year ago, there was no ice in western Antarctica --- it was stripped away or rapidly melted.



That would be close to the correct and proper phraseology that accurately describes history.

Hebrew version is not plausible, but of the 140+ "Flood Myth" all are plausible.

If you want to nit-pick, of the 140+ plus "Flood Myths", about 2/3 are factually plausible and the reason that the 1/3 are not factually plausible is that they attribute the event to an angry deity or as some form of punishment. If you omit that, then all are plausible.



Actually, there's a boat-load of evidence that is growing by leaps and bounds every year.

This evidence does not support the Hebrew version of the event, but it does support all other claims.

Only the Hebrews claim it was a "flood."

The evidence all other cultures provide is that it was a global tsunami.

A lot of the problems stem from the fact that neither christians nor Jews have a clue what they're reading, as evidenced by the fact that there was no "Flood" rather there was a Deluge -- and it isn't just semantics -- all floods are deluges but not all deluges are floods.

The second error stems from the mistranslation of tĕhowm --- remember that Hebrew is just the Ugaritic dialect of Canaanite Aramaic without the case endings --- even so, tĕhowm is a Sumerian/Akkadian loan-word and not of Canaanite/Aramaic origin.

However, the connotation is of waves crashing. The literal translation is "wave after wave without ceasing..." (see Psalm 33, Psalm 42, Psalm 78 and Exodus 15 for examples).

That is neither a flood nor heavy rains, but it perfectly describes a series of tsunamis sweeping back and forth across the globe.

And, that is what all of the accounts of the 140+ that describe the duration claim as well, because they put the duration at 3 days to 6 days --- and the 4-5 accounts that claim 6 days actually say it lasted 5 days and the waters receded or ebbed on by the 6th day.

More telling is the difference in the accounts -- in the Western Hemisphere there is mention of an Ice Star, Water Comet, Water Rock, Flaming Arrow, Green Star and so on while no such descriptions occur in accounts from the Eastern Hemisphere.

Two different events?

Nope, same even, different perspectives --- it is a matter of science and physics that someone in the Eastern Hemisphere could not possibly see something that people in the Western Hemisphere could --- thus the difference in accounts.





Those impacts are dated to the Age of Leo, just like the Sumerians said.

I would recommend that people start reading peer reviewed science and the theories of Richard Firestone of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. There are 10 sites representing early man -- Clovis and pre-Clovis cultures---- containing spheroidal metals and nano diamonds in a layer of sediment dating 12,900 years ago. And these sites cover an area of some 70 percent of the continental U.S. Obviously burning material rained down on both man and beast, fires raged across the continent reducing food sources for any surviving life forms and effectively bringing the end to a greater part of mammalian life.

That is why all the great mammals like mastodons, mammoths, the saber-toothed tiger, the giant sloth, the giant bear et al died off in North America.

It is now widely believed that these impacts were caused by either a comet/asteroid that broke up in space and struck Earth just like Shoemaker-Levy hit Jupiter, or it broke apart entering Earth's atmosphere.

Those impacts not only caused the mass extinction there at the Pliocene-Holocene Boundary, but also impacts in the oceans caused tsunamis that killed lots of people --- but not every one --- and are the true source of the Deluge Stories from around the world.

You all might want to go look at satellite and space shuttle photos of ghost beaches --- huge deposits of sand high up in the Himalayas, the Rockies, the Andes and elsewhere.

And no, it's not just glacial erosion -- sorry, baby, this tons of sand in the form of cubic kilometers and not organic to its location -- the sand in the Himalayas ought to be full of thorium, just like the beaches of southeastern India, but it isn't, because that sand does not come from anywhere on the Indian sub-continent or the Eurasian Plate.



That's a valid criticism. I made that criticism myself repeatedly.





That's what they Persian Gulf looked like 12,000 years ago.

Furthermore, I have yet to see a skeptic give a satisfactory answer as to why the flood story exists in almost every ancient culture around the world.

I have.



There is evidence. In your life-time, like in the next 20 years, it will be known that a cataclysmic event of cosmic origin caused both the extinction of large mammals and caused global tsunamis that are the basis for the Deluge events in numerous cultures on six different continents.

The Gobi Desert is just one piece of the puzzle; so are the ghost beaches up in the mountains, so are the mass graves of animals along with various flora and fauna and numerous other pieces of evidence.



I do believe we've discussed that before.....I love how christians perfectly accept archeology as proof oft he "Bible" except when archaeology refutes their claims -- like the Exodus.....the Israelites did not destroy 16 cities as claimed.....sorry.



But it didn't, and such an oral tradition would have been in Akkadian -- since that is what Abrahm spoke --- and then in Canaanite and then in the Ugaritic Dialect and then in Hebrew. As you can plainly see, such tales get lost in translation.

The biblical story is neither detailed nor plausible, and where it does provide detail, it conflicts....

That there are both multiple writers and multiple sources of the Hebrew "Deluge" is proven:

P says that the flood lasted for almost one year (7:11, 7:24, 8:3, and 8:13).

J says that it lasted for forty days and forty nights (7:17).

P says that Noah sent a raven, while J says it was a dove, Genesis 8:7-8, while J has seven pairs of clean animals and two pair of unclean animals.

J stated that God smelled the sacrifices of Noah and it pleased Him, Genesis 8:21, but note that P cannot make such a statement, because P only claims that one pair of each animal was brought aboard, thus a sacrifice would have resulted in extinction of whatever species was sacrificed.

And how many people survived the "Flood?"

8 people plus the hundreds of Nephilim.

Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this).

Apparently either your god cannot kill the Nephilim, or they outwitted and out-smarted your god, because they were on the Earth before and after the "Flood."

So Noah and his sons were not the only ones that survived.



Detailed genealogies are irrelevant.

To the extent that detailed genealogies might be relevant, we have this....

Nehemiah 13:1 On that day the book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people. They found written in it that no Ammonite or Moabite may ever enter the assembly of God.

Ruth 4:13 So Boaz married Ruth and had sexual relations with her. The Lord enabled her to conceive and she gave birth to a son. 4:17 The neighbor women named him, saying, “A son has been born to Naomi.” They named him Obed. Now he became the father of Jesse – David’s father!

David cannot be in the assembly of god, because he is descended of Moabites.

Matthew 1:1 This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz (by Rahab), Boaz the father of Obed (by Ruth), Obed the father of Jesse, 1:6 and Jesse the father of David the king.

Jesus is descended of Moabites, because Jesus is descended of David who is a Moabite, and therefore Jesus cannot be in the assembly of god.

Logically then, Jesus cannot be god.

How do you get around that?

Simple.....the Doctrine of Virgin Birth.

If Mary immaculately conceives, then Joseph is out of the picture, and you can then get around the fact that Jesus is not allowed in the assembly of god --- Jesus wouldn't be allowed in Heaven.

That also explains something else....

Which came first, the genealogy of Jesus according to Matthew or the genealogy of Jesus according to Luke?

Matthew.

How do we know?

Luke is not aware of Nehemiah, but he is aware of Deuteronomy which bars Moabites and Ammonites for 10 generations, rather than all of those descended of Moabites (and Ammonites).

Matthew's gospel is written first.....but not by Matthew who was dead and gone already....but the writer is not familiar with Nehemiah or Deuteronomy, and he makes the mistake of showing Jesus descended of David who is a Moabite.

Luke's gospel is written next.....but not by Luke was also dead and gone.....and the writer is familiar with Deuteronomy, but not Nehemiah.

Accordingly, to get around the prohibition of 10 generations, the writer of Luke flip-flops the genealogies between David-Solomon---Joseph-Jesus and David-Nathan---Joseph-Jesus

Matthew says Jesus is descended from David through David's son Solomon, but Luke says Jesus is descended from David through David's son Nathan....a contradiction that christians conveniently ignore, because they cannot face reality.

So now later, someone who is familiar with Nehemiah points out that Jesus cannot be god or the son of god or sent by god since Jesus is forever banned from entering the assembly of god because Jesus is a Moabite.

And the "Virgin Birth" fixes that problem.

Someone started a great thread on Dr. Sopolsky's theory on Mental Illness and religion and there were short videos to watch -- it is most excellent and I highly recommend it.

Look at how the Yahweh-Jesus-Casper-the-not-always-Friendly-Ghost thing is totally obsessed with banal and trivial details on things like garments worn by priests and the adornment and decoration of the Temple and other things.....that makes no sense, unless you view it light of Mental Illness and an obsessive compulsive disorder, and that's also true of lots of rituals and other things.

Biblically....

Mircea[/quote]


LOL, that's the best you got? What a load of garbage. Epic Fail, dude. I'm now off to enjoy my weekend. Maybe you should do the same instead of wasting your time trying to destroy the faith of Christians.

[Cosmicstargoat]

Originally Posted by TWD39

LOL, that's the best you got? What a load of garbage. Epic Fail, dude. I'm now off to enjoy my weekend. Maybe you should do the same instead of wasting your time trying to destroy the faith of Christians.

That's not an argument, that's WHINING.

Here's a big suggestion. If you can't stomach seeing your ludicrous claims destroyed, then STOP MAKING THEM.

Thus endeth the lesson.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by TWD39

What would you say is the most problematic concept of Christianity? As for why God doesn't just come down and talk to us, you have to understand it from a spiritual perspective since God is a spiritual being. One reason He can't just simply reveal Himself fully to humans is our limited minds could not handle it all at once. It would be like trying to teach a baby advanced calculus. You must grow first through a process of salvation and then learning through faith.

Also sin basically acts like a barrier or signal jammer that prevents God from interacting with man. Now born again Christians who are not living in sin certainly hear from God. And He often tells them to do things they don't want to do. Now why would someone's imagination do such a thing?

It's not rocket science, it's 'brain' science


Brain scans show how people project their own views onto what they think are "God's" views.

Creating God in one's own image : Not Exactly Rocket Science

"Their opinions on God's attitudes on important social issues closely mirror their own beliefs. If their own attitudes change, so do their perceptions of what God thinks. They even use the same parts of their brain when considering God's will and their own opinions."

"The results suggest that similar parts of the brain are involved when we consider our own beliefs and those of God - Epley thinks this is why we end up inferring a deity's attitudes based on those we hold ourselves."

[deadwood]

Originally Posted by ChristyGrl

Gilgamesh outdates Noah by thousands of years. Another case of bible syncretism...and old news.

Yeah, and you taught yourself how to read too.