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Sure it's a choice. My choice is based on the intellectual pondering of the God factor...I could just as well choose to be an atheists but my intellect tells me that would be falling short of probability and possibility. It is not impossible that there is a God- That is a fact. My kids are not indoctrinated in any manner...it's their choice to believe or not. There is no "ignoring" of scientific evidence and there is no failing in critical thinking...Science is not all knowing and never will be- just like faith science is on going learning...I am not going to institute my thinking and stop thinking because YOU think - YOU have the answer.
This is the argument from ignorance fallacy that you are stating. Simply because science doesn't have all the answers, you are inserting God.
Can you choose to believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? Could you choose to not believe in God, even though you are now convinced that he/she/it exists? No. Belief is NOT a choice. Do you force your children to go to church? If so, then you are having them indoctrinated. What evidence do you have of your god?
GOOD evidence is required, of which you have presented none that I can recall.
Every time I submit evidence to the closed minded skeptic, it is dismissed without consideration.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
Considering your claims, you really have no room to comment on what others use as evidence. At least books are tangible, while your hallucinations mean even less.
Nice, call those with whom you disagree with you as insane. Not a good way to start dialog. Assuming you have any interest real dialog.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
This is the argument from ignorance fallacy that you are stating. Simply because science doesn't have all the answers, you are inserting God.
Can you choose to believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? Could you choose to not believe in God, even though you are now convinced that he/she/it exists? No. Belief is NOT a choice. Do you force your children to go to church? If so, then you are having them indoctrinated. What evidence do you have of your god?
Stop foaming at the mouth. I suggest a glass or two of wine. My guess you really are not interested in discussion. You just want to be right. In a very bad way.
Every time I submit evidence to the closed minded skeptic, it is dismissed without consideration.
That is because you have never submitted any valid evidence...Conjecture is not evidence.
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Nice, call those with whom you disagree with you as insane. Not a good way to start dialog. Assuming you have any interest real dialog.
Nobody was called insane...
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Stop foaming at the mouth. I suggest a glass or two of wine. My guess you really are not interested in discussion. You just want to be right. In a very bad way.
Every time I submit evidence to the closed minded skeptic, it is dismissed without consideration.
Oh, it's always considered, but likely for a very short time considering its likely very weak evidence at best. Why don't you try us?
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Nice, call those with whom you disagree with you as insane. Not a good way to start dialog. Assuming you have any interest real dialog.
I'm sure you'd say the same about someone who claimed to be in meditation and claimed they were kidnapped by aliens.
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Stop foaming at the mouth. I suggest a glass or two of wine. My guess you really are not interested in discussion. You just want to be right. In a very bad way.
Had two IPA's instead, while watching a jazz jam session, so I believe I should have been in the correct frame of mind. But, in some cases you are right. I'm not really interested in dialog with those who claim they're the chosen ones, to whom God has decided to reveal all during meditation. But, as Richard Dawkins explains, ridicule works best in some cases.
This is the argument from ignorance fallacy that you are stating. Simply because science doesn't have all the answers, you are inserting God.
Can you choose to believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? Could you choose to not believe in God, even though you are now convinced that he/she/it exists? No. Belief is NOT a choice. Do you force your children to go to church? If so, then you are having them indoctrinated. What evidence do you have of your god?
Get the God hate out of your mind for a second - remove your thoughts of religion for a moment. This is not about religion..This is an intellectual pondering of possibilities. I am not a religious person per say- I have done my religious study but unlike you - I have cherry picked as they say....what is real and what is political and what is myth...Then I filtered out the garbage from the gold and make an informed decision...When you see atheists used terms like "sky daddy" "tooth fairy" and all the other quick fix parroting of uninformed atheism - you know that they have not done their homework.
"Force" my children to go to church? What is that supposed to mean? I did not force them as children to do anything- besides God does not reside in a church. I am also NOT one of those A holes who "force" their children into atheism thinking I am doing them a favor and creating more sophisticated people.
Oh here we go again with the "YOUR" God bit---as if there is no God because some stupid primitives had multiple gods so GOD as a singular force or source does not exist. I would say that most atheists want the quick fix and want to be comfortable in their skin----------and FEAR the existence of GOD because they do not understand what IT might be.
Yes - I repeat - I could have chosen to be an atheists- that would be easy and convenient and make me popular in some circles of belief. I put the whole proposal of possibility on a scale and I weighed things out...the scale was in perfect balance then the choice was made to where it would tip- For me being a bright enough person it tipped toward God. It was NOT a religious decision or one that came through indoctrination of any kind.
I being a very creative rebel and a man of great pride ACTUALLY don't even like the idea of God...I am just like you...but the difference is I do not harbor hate or contempt for my superiors - if there is a superior force and source in the universe - I will submit to that power- because it is WISE. All my life I was on a quest seeking wisdom and being a blind ridged atheist was not a real option.
I'm just curious to know if there are some people - even among those reading this forum - who believe that God and the Son of God are uniquely beyond any kind of external (objective) proof/evidence.
This is my perspective on the topic.
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Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
That is, even if no empirical or rational evidence were ever found that they exist, it would make no difference. They would still be very real anyway and should be believed in - based on scripture, revelation,
If someone is effectually called by God and given the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit, then it should be believed in (though they always have a choice to reject that faith). If not, then I'm not sure what the point of it would be; though perhaps He would prefer someone to try to believe in Him than to ignore Him.
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Originally Posted by Oleg Bach
Ultimate evidence of anything can never be achieved. Believing or not believing in God is a choice..atheists do not have ultimate evidence nor to believers- I would say it is better to believe than not- what harm does it do to have faith?
I would respectfully disagree with you in that the basis of your argument is unfounded, in my perspective. I have come to the conclusion from my personal experience that it is impossible to have faith by a choice, in that you can choose to believe if that belief has not been offered to you by the Holy Spirit. I don't believe though that it would be harmful to want to have faith; it just might not be possible for some.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
Sorry, believing is NOT a choice. Either you see evidence that convinces you or not.
That is how I feel about it.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
It does not harm to simply believe, but it does harm society when those beliefs are legislated and it harms children when they are indoctrinated to believe, ignoring scientific evidence and failing to think critically.
I agree--there is absolutely no point and it is excessively detrimental to try to force any sort of beliefs on anyone (however, the same is true in the reverse: for those who do believe, I feel that--as long as they are not hurting others--they should be allowed to believe and worship God in the way they want to. Beliefs of society should not be forced upon those who place God above it).
May I say...experiencing God is simple and easy.
But, there is a reason why the "Holy Spirit", the Spirit of God is depicted as a dove.
If you live in a highrise...you can have pigeons on your window overhang forever....a gunshot could go off in your apartment.
But, if a dove has landed there and someone simply walks by the window talking loudly...that dove will take off so fast....
The Spirit of God will only come to a heart that is sincere, simple, kind, guiless, innocent, expecting, waiting and still....Sikh poetry often calls Him "the Guest"....also,
The Friend and the Beloved and the Lover...set the table of your heart with flowers and sweet smells...wait for your Lover's arrival...peeking around the corner at first, timid until He feels welcomed and prepared for...this is a Cosmic Dance, a Divine Romance.
Place your heart in a position as if your hand is out with your eyes closed waiting for a dove to light...breathless and still.
First rule- never argue with an atheist...They will state "your ARGUMENT is unfounded" _ was not arguing. It does not matter if you believe or not- I don't care and I am sure that God does not care either...In our Canadian bill of rights the pre-amble states - The supremacy of God and the rule of law there under" - That is there for a reason...it FORCES human beings into a higher state of mindedness- where we are all equal and no one person gets to play God - that we are all under one authority........That sounds like a smart system- how are you going to :"argue" with what is clearly intelligent when it comes to dealing with flawed human nature?
Pretend there is a God if you want...believe there is a God if you please...but don't play god by removing God...not even God bothers to dominate humanity- but religious nuts and atheists seem to want too- they are the same.
May I say...experiencing God is simple and easy.
But, there is a reason why the "Holy Spirit", the Spirit of God is depicted as a dove.
If you live in a highrise...you can have pidgeons on your window overhang forever....a gunshot could go off in your apartment.
But, if a dove has landed there and someone simply walk by the window talking loudly...that dove will take off so fast....
The Spirit of God will only come to a heart that is sincere, simple, kind, guiless, innocent, expecting, waiting and still....Sikh poetry often calls Him "the Guest"....also,
The Friend and the Beloved and the Lover...set the table of your heart with flowers and sweet smells...wait for your Lover's arrival...peeking around the corner at first, timid until He feels welcomed and prepared for...this is a Cosmic Dance, a Divine Romance.
Place your heart in a position as if your hand is out with your eyes closed waiting for a dove to light...breathless and still.
Just put out a bird feeder on my roof top garden...I have always loved the common sparrow...they wait in anticipation for me to put out some food...I wait in anticipation for them to arrive- I take great joy in being good. Recently I can feel love as if it is a material thing of solidity ...I feel it when I send it...I feel it when it descends on me....There is a divine dance and romance...the sparrows ...are all the proof I need...thanks my friend - and I love you also.
Just put out a bird feeder on my roof top garden...I have always loved the common sparrow...they wait in anticipation for me to put out some food...I wait in anticipation for them to arrive- I take great joy in being good. Recently I can feel love as if it is a material thing of solidity ...I feel it when I send it...I feel it when it descends on me....There is a divine dance and romance...the sparrows ...are all the proof I need...thanks my friend - and I love you also.
All of these, and more, can be experienced and enjoyed without the need for a god.
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