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The mods have developed a welcome tolerance of off topic if interesting and productive. I take the opportunity of thanking them for well -judged and moderate moderating.
But you didn't answer my question. If we are wrong...if there is a god...or even God...what? Let me clarify. So what? So we are wrong. We can be cool with that. After all we came to disbelief through pretty rigorous evaluation of the facts so what god could hold that against us?
Bottom line, if you are not keeping the old Baculum behind your back, then we have nothing to worry about if we are wrong.
Although raised strict Catholic, in retrospect I find myself amazed at my experience in parochial school, where the old nuns used to talk about what was essentially the "noble savage" and "enlightened pagan" thing. Essentially that good people will end up in heaven or purgatory as a steppingstone to heaven. Bad people will go to hell.
These days, as something of a universalist, I continue to believe those precepts.We "universalists" do not believe in hell, I'm sure some believe in satan as a being whose role is to tempt humans into evil, but I do not personally believe in satan as taught by the fundamentalists nor do I believe in hellfire and damnation. What I do believe is that good people, moral people, are rewarded. Borderline and evil people go into aionios kolasan, the age long correction, eventually to be rewarded.
I understand the case to be made for annihilation, and it makes a kind of sense. I do not accept it, though.
The point is that in my own belief system, God does not punish non believers. Christian morality is a good thing and continues to be highly influential, even to non believers.
It is the result that matters, not the dogma.
PS I believe that God talks to us all the time and through that inspiration we have ended up with science and medicine and all kinds of good things, and that as a result we are given to tools to transform ourselves into something greater than we were. Without that inspiration we would still be running around with spears and arrows and plundering eachother, ignorant of the grand universe that we modern humans see around us.
I totally agree with you. I think you covered some very important points very well.
When I rejected OR, I didn't reject God/Jesus (Christianity Plain, I'm going to call it. ) Somehow I knew God was out there (for me), but I didn't know where or how. I had to search. If He wasn't out there for me, then so be it. I couldn't find Him in church. So, I searched elsewhere. Back to that "own path" thing.
I don't know what Pascal's Wager is. I will look this up. Thanks to people - mostly non-followers - on this forum, I have read and explored many things. I don't think information and knowledge are bad, threatening things. My faith must stand the test of time and challenge or it isn't any good.
I like what you say in this post and I wholeheartedly encourage you to follow that path you have been given (and I DO believe you have been given a path to follow)
When I was 21 God spoke to me. I truly blieve that, and no one can convince me otherwise. The circumstance is irrelevant to this particular forum, but he told me that I should ignore the Christians around me and find my own way.
I took those words to heart, and have been travelling my path ever since. In my case it has lead to my greater understanding of the message of Jesus, uncorrupted by those who hate and who attempt to rule by fear. God is, after all, love for Him and all of his creation.
I wish you well on your own path. It will be an exciting journey.
Welcome to paradise if you are a noble pagan, or to aionios kolasan if you are not.
There's always annihilation, as if you were an ant. I do not believe that, but I recognize a case can be made.
PS. How about you? Do you believe that when our eyes close for that final time that it is over? Darkness forever. Endless, dreamless sleep? How would we know?
Welcome to paradise if you are a noble pagan, or to aionios kolasan if you are not.
There's always annihilation, as if you were an ant. I do not believe that, but I recognize a case can be made.
PS. How about you? Do you believe that when our eyes close for that final time that it is over? Darkness forever. Endless, dreamless sleep? How would we know?
Just to be sure, what does "aionios kolasan" (usually translated 'eternal punishment') signify to you?
The evidence seems to be that there is nothing after death. Dissolution,. Sorry, but atheism doesn't make the rules, it lives with the results.
Anything else...well, ok, If we have no expectation of another life, then it's a bonus. having made the most of this one, we win twice. Possibly the believers in an afterlife, having imagined one tailored to their own preferences, might be disappointed at what they do get.
The only way this afterlife threat works against us is if it is a case of us missing out seriously on something through not believing. Frankly as a criterion for being deserving that sounds absurd. And you had better be sure you picked the right religion.
utter conviction that have got it absolutely rigfht, no matter ho many times you change your mind, sounds absurd to me, too.
The Nobl;e savages theory reminds me of the story of the missionary and the eskimo (now we have to say Inuit or we are being racist or something) 'No, if you did not know, you would not go to hell.'
'Then why did you tell us?'
The only solution is a sort of reservation for noble Pagans about a million times the size of the believers who qualify. Because the small town of classical writers who Dante wanted to keep out of hell, will not wash, is purely his own idea and I cannot think why it seems to been adopted as an (unworkable) solution to the viruous Pagan problem.
The only solution, and this would be known to any God other than a real brute determined to go through with His cockamamie plan for man, purely for his own amusement, is to not tell us he was there at all.
Which is what He does. But that doesn't stop humans inventing a lot of talking kangaroos, splitting dragons and burning bushes to bolster their own claims about their own self importance and to smother their terror of death.
Those we unbelievers regard as absurd and that includes thesoterial speciulations of church theologians and the various pick and mix feel -comfy solutions decided on by those drifting away from church doctrine. We expect nothing, and certainly not some kind of punishment for not believing that the world was created from the spume produced by a god screwing his sister. And the absurdities of the Bible -based explanations I regard as no less unbelievable.
The mods have developed a welcome tolerance of off topic if interesting and productive. I take the opportunity of thanking them for well -judged and moderate moderating.
But you didn't answer my question. If we are wrong...if there is a god...or even God...what? Let me clarify. So what? So we are wrong. We can be cool with that. After all we came to disbelief through pretty rigorous evaluation of the facts so what god could hold that against us?
Ok. I need to re-start my engine, because I don't think I'm firing on all my cylinders.
I really don't think I understand what you are asking. So, correct me if I am wrong. I went back and re-read your question and I don't see anything I missed.
According to my understanding, if you don't believe in God, if you don't find God and you reject my answer that there is redemption of another kind, then you will live your life on this earth and die whenever you die (as all other living things), you'll be buried and turn back to the dust of the earth. That is the end of it. I don't believe in eternal hell fire or God punishing you in torment. Maybe not. The Bible is filled with "punishment". But again, if any one sin is forgiven, then all are forgiven. I certainly don't have all the answers.
You stated, "After all we came to disbelief through pretty rigorous evaluation of the facts so what god could hold that against us?" I don't think anyone finds God through "pretty rigorous evaluation". I think that is the whole point of God. God is spiritual, of the spirit. He communes with our souls. Hence, man in two parts. The flesh is just that, flesh. That dust to dust thing. As far as a relationship with God, the flesh just kind of tags along. The flesh is just a vessel to house the soul. Some people don't have a soul. They are just a vessel.
I really think it would be hard to stand before God and argue why He doesn't exist. I don't think that is an argument that one could win. So, if there really is a God, then that is what a non-believer would have to do, if he were being judged. I think God would probably have a problem with that.
Please forgive me if I seem vague. I don't mean to. There is so much information and it would take volumes for me to explain what I am trying to say (about the size of the Bible ). The Bible is very difficult. I don't deny that. It is confusing and it says a lot of things - many very contradictory. That is why I'm on my 3rd reading trying to understand. It is a difficult journey. There are so many great minds out there - especially among those who don't believe. I wish that they would read the Bible - without the influence of OR - with not only their minds, but with their hearts to see what insights might be gained. I could use the help. But there is really no where to go, that I have found. There is church and there are non-believers. There needs to be somebody in the middle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Bottom line, if you are not keeping the old Baculum behind your back, then we have nothing to worry about if we are wrong.
I really don't understand this statement. Is "you" me or is "you" somebody else? Am I an ape? Do I have a penis bone that I am hiding? I'm sorry, I just don't understand this and I have read it a number of times.
Maybe this is a typo? Are you referring to ad baculum (as in Argumentum Ad Baculum?), the threat of force?
...snip...
Maybe this is a typo? Are you referring to ad baculum (as in Argumentum Ad Baculum?), the threat of force?
I'm not Arq -- and I'm not nearly handsome enough to play him on TV -- but I believe that's exactly what he was wondering: whether you believe unbelievers get scorched for eternity upon reaching their expiration date.
Just to be sure, what does "aionios kolasan" (usually translated 'eternal punishment') signify to you?
The evidence seems to be that there is nothing after death. Dissolution,. Sorry, but atheism doesn't make the rules, it lives with the results.
Anything else...well, ok, If we have no expectation of another life, then it's a bonus. having made the most of this one, we win twice. Possibly the believers in an afterlife, having imagined one tailored to their own preferences, might be disappointed at what they do get.
The only way this afterlife threat works against us is if it is a case of us missing out seriously on something through not believing. Frankly as a criterion for being deserving that sounds absurd. And you had better be sure you picked the right religion.
utter conviction that have got it absolutely rigfht, no matter ho many times you change your mind, sounds absurd to me, too.
The Nobl;e savages theory reminds me of the story of the missionary and the eskimo (now we have to say Inuit or we are being racist or something) 'No, if you did not know, you would not go to hell.'
'Then why did you tell us?'
The only solution is a sort of reservation for noble Pagans about a million times the size of the believers who qualify. Because the small town of classical writers who Dante wanted to keep out of hell, will not wash, is purely his own idea and I cannot think why it seems to been adopted as an (unworkable) solution to the viruous Pagan problem.
The only solution, and this would be known to any God other than a real brute determined to go through with His cockamamie plan for man, purely for his own amusement, is to not tell us he was there at all.
Which is what He does. But that doesn't stop humans inventing a lot of talking kangaroos, splitting dragons and burning bushes to bolster their own claims about their own self importance and to smother their terror of death.
Those we unbelievers regard as absurd and that includes thesoterial speciulations of church theologians and the various pick and mix feel -comfy solutions decided on by those drifting away from church doctrine. We expect nothing, and certainly not some kind of punishment for not believing that the world was created from the spume produced by a god screwing his sister. And the absurdities of the Bible -based explanations I regard as no less unbelievable.
ainios kolasan has been mistranslated as "punishment forever and ever, or eternal punishment fpt yoo long a time. More correctly it means age long correction, or age long pruning. That meaning is the core of universalist belief. If you dont measure up you go though purification until you do measure up. Purgatory, if you will. The concept of purification entered Jewish thought during the time of the Hasmodians and was preached by some of the pharisees, who were newly established. Jesus himself was probably something of a pharisee, which is why he hated them (or maybe a certain sect of them). The whole hellfire and damnation thing comes from a long twisted evolution of theology based partly upon the sheol to hades to hell thing and the evolution of satan from an aspect of Elohim to the creature we know and love today.
Sorry to give you far more than you asked for. I get carried away sometimes.
With regards to the rest of your post, you wont get too much of an argument from me. But we humans have come a long way from our primitive beginnings.
No evidence? Or just know way of knowing or proving if there is or is not an afterlife?
I'll leave the rest for another time and place. Enjoyed reading.
I like what you say in this post and I wholeheartedly encourage you to follow that path you have been given (and I DO believe you have been given a path to follow)
When I was 21 God spoke to me. I truly blieve that, and no one can convince me otherwise. The circumstance is irrelevant to this particular forum, but he told me that I should ignore the Christians around me and find my own way.
I took those words to heart, and have been travelling my path ever since. In my case it has lead to my greater understanding of the message of Jesus, uncorrupted by those who hate and who attempt to rule by fear. God is, after all, love for Him and all of his creation.
I wish you well on your own path. It will be an exciting journey.
Hi Chuckmann. I was about to reply to another of your posts when I found this one. You have said a number of things that I would love to ask you to expound on. From what I had read of your postings, you seem to be "in the middle" - between non-believers and steeped-in-religious-doctrine Christians. I consider myself "in the middle". I've heard what the steeped-in-religious-doctrine Christians have to say from sitting in the church pew of a number of organized religions (OR) and I am looking for something different. I've heard what the non-believers have to say. They have pointed me in the direction of some fine reading, but not promoting God, of course. I'm looking for people that believe, but have found answers outside of OR. I don't know that I will agree with you or accept as my own belief what you say, but I would like to hear it. I'm on my 3rd reading of the Bible and many things have become clear to me, but I know that there is so much more. I'm looking for "any light under the door" that might lead me to even more understanding. May I asked you some questions?
I, too, was in my early 20s when I found God. I was born into a Christian family, so I never doubted God was out there. I sat in the church pew (across numerous denominations) through out my childhood, but I didn't "feel" God. I thought that there was something wrong with me that I couldn't feel God in what was proclaimed as His house. I thought that maybe God was only out there for some and others like me were not worthy of His love or attention. I just didn't know. I just knew I could not feel him - that we had not made a connection..
Then one night I was in crisis. Alone, in my own home, in the total darkness, I dropped to the floor, sobbing deep wrenching sobs. I was so low. I was at my wits end. For some reason, I called out to God. Instantly, I was filled with His love and hope and I was able to pull myself up. I have "felt" Him ever since. Yes, I believe it was God and yes, nothing will ever make me think it wasn't.
Thank you for your well-wishes. It certainly has been so far.
I'm not Arq -- and I'm not nearly handsome enough to play him on TV -- but I believe that's exactly what he was wondering: whether you believe unbelievers get scorched for eternity upon reaching their expiration date.
Hey, TroutDude. Thanks! I spent 15 or 20 minutes pondering why I was standing anywhere with a penis bone behind my back! I have done some odd things in my life, but not that. I promise!
On this forum, one cannot take anything for granted.
Arq is a lot like the Romans - he loves to play with the Christians. Here, Kitty, Kitty....
I always think he is playing with me, so I really didn't know. Finally, it dawned on me that it might be a typo.
No. I really don't believe unbelievers get scorched for eternity upon reaching their expiration date.
I still figure Arq is looking for something more from me, because I think I said that in the first post.
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If we are wrong...if there is a god...or even God...what? Let me clarify. So what? So we are wrong. We can be cool with that. After all we came to disbelief through pretty rigorous evaluation of the facts so what god could hold that against us? 
) Somehow I knew God was out there (for me), but I didn't know where or how. I had to search. If He wasn't out there for me, then so be it. I couldn't find Him in church. So, I searched elsewhere. Back to that "own path" thing. 
