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Hey, TroutDude. Thanks! I spent 15 or 20 minutes pondering why I was standing anywhere with a penis bone behind my back! I have done some odd things in my life, but not that. I promise!
On this forum, one cannot take anything for granted.
Arq is a lot like the Romans - he loves to play with the Christians. Here, Kitty, Kitty....
I always think he is playing with me, so I really didn't know. Finally, it dawned on me that it might be a typo.
No. I really don't believe unbelievers get scorched for eternity upon reaching their expiration date.
I still figure Arq is looking for something more from me, because I think I said that in the first post.
In fact, Ella and Chuckman also you clarified your ideas and answered my question. about 'What if I'm wrong?' or what if atheists are wrong and there is a God. The question is: are we being threatened with eternal punishment or indeed some kind of punishment less than hellfire or just temporary like purgatory?
That is the 'baculum'. The fallacy of ad baculum or the big Stick. Frightening the doubters with heavenly retribution so they'll believe.
I take your point about approaching God through the spirit or whatever, but that just raises the question: 'Which God'. The spirit grabs you in any religion from Buddhism to Islam. That of course will elicit the response:
'Their own fault - they should all have become Christian long ago. Then they'd have turned in spirit to the right god."
But they could say the same, and that's when you start to argue about the relative merits of this or that religion. And that's when the reasoning your way to the truth comes in. The spiritual sway has become inadequate for choosing what to believe.
That is one reason why I believe that no religion is the right one and there can be no punishment, separation, purgatory or any other retribution in any afterlife other than by a god who should be ashamed of itself for such arbitrary and unjust behaviour. We were given minds so as not to use them and just rely of faith?
Indeed, the Bible suggests just that - that minds are given us more as a temptation to doubt and the whole Eden thing is about giving into the temptation to think, rather than just do what God says.
But, as shown above, what God says is merely a cultural, national and tribal convention. This just cannot be true, right, or just. So there can be no religion -or god - specific afterlife. If there is one, it is for everyone, believer in faith or disbeliever in thought.
There probably is no afterlife, on the basis of the evidence I've seen (and I am not forgetting NDE's here) but if there is one, it is for everyone. So, if I am wrong and there is a god, or at least an afterlife - it cannot be, either on Faith or reason, one where punishment, purgatory or any kind of discrimination is dished out on the basis of what you believed - or didn't.
So what if I am wrong? So, nothing whatsoever..
If I am wrong, it doesn't matter and waving the 'what if you're wrong' implied threat at me is an empty threat.
The implied threat of just not existing and the attempt to use creepy decay terrors to frighten us into believing in an afterlife is easily seen through. The decay (or burning) happens, afterlife or not, and is irrelevant.
Finally, playing...it is more an attempt to use the Socratic method of posing questions and letting the other person supply the conclusions. It avoids hitting the mental block button of putting conclusions that are immediately screened out.
Unfortunately it never seems to work and I have to end up by explaining everything anyway.
P.s apologies for going right off -topic on this one stray throw away remark, but 'What if you're wrong' is one of the dirtier bombs in the theist apologetic armoury.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-15-2014 at 05:08 AM..
In fact, Ella and Chuckman also you clarified your ideas and answered my question. about 'What if I'm wrong?' or what if atheists are wrong and there is a God. The question is: are we being threatened with eternal punishment or indeed some kind of punishment less than hellfire or just temporary like purgatory?
This is hard for me to answer. I don't have all the answers and I am still figuring things out. Please don't send the guys with the butterfly nets. You will probably think I am looney tunes when I get done, but I am going to tell you what I *think* I believe - up to this point in my search. Unlike organized religion (OR), I am totally willing to say that this is where I stand now and I am willing to amend my beliefs later. Now, this is just my opinion and I don't know if a person in this world will agree with me. That's why I preach "each has his own path to follow" and his own truth to find. I don't think any of us are going to know until we stand before God and he tells us. We may all be doomed to the very pit of hellfire for all I know.
I don't find any evidence in the Bible of an eternal hell fire for anybody. Now, that doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means that I haven't found it. There is plenty of hell fire and brimstone in the Bible. There is no OR that I know of that is not preaching eternal hell fire and damnation. But, I haven't found it. One other poster mentioned the same thing. I haven't had a chance to talk to him yet. By the same token, I have not found anything about the afterlife. God promises salvation, and no spiritual death, and everlasting life, but I haven't found any kind of a description about what that means. I sure haven't found OR's version of St. Peter standing at the Pearly Gates, which open on to streets of gold lined with big, fine mansions. Again, that doesn't mean it isn't there, but I haven't found it. So, the basic Christian concepts of "heaven" and "hell" just don't seem to exist. That's why I'm reading my Bible for the 3rd time.
I will get back to your question as we go along and I address your points. Bear with me. This whole thing is a lot more complicated that it first appears. And, I don't have a succinct bone in my body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
That is the 'baculum'. The fallacy of ad baculum or the big Stick. Frightening the doubters with heavenly retribution so they'll believe.
Darlin, put the "ad" in front of it. That big stick is the penile bone found in some mammals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I take your point about approaching God through the spirit or whatever, but that just raises the question: 'Which God'. The spirit grabs you in any religion from Buddhism to Islam. That of course will elicit the response:
'Their own fault - they should all have become Christian long ago. Then they'd have turned in spirit to the right god."
I believe that there is only one God. Mine, theirs, every ones. The whole Christian concept is that the Gentiles didn't have a God. The Muslims had Allah and the Jews had Yewah (is that the right spelling? Sorry). We know these two Gods were the same because the Christian Bible follows one family (Adam's) through the generations to Jesus. But, this one family was huge. They had several divisions - due to the fact that they became too big and had to move away or they had fights or whatever. The KJV is the genealogy of Jesus. So, as this one family split, the KJV only followed the line in the family that would eventually lead to Jesus - so we would have his genealogy and his background. But there were thousands more of the Hebrews/Jews/Israelites all over this area of the Middle East. Additionally, there were thousands and thousands of Gentiles. I don't know anything at all about the history of the Muslims. You know much more than I do, so you could enlighten me. As I understand it, the "roots" of the Muslims could have started as far back as Isaac's two sons, Jacob and Esau. I don't know. Jacob was the ancestor of Jesus, so the Bible follows him. Esau is not part of it.
So, now there are these gentiles all over the place. God's son, Jesus, a Jew, opened his heart to the gentiles, so believing in Jesus as the son of God and the one who died for our sins begat Christianity.
Now, we've got 3 religions with the same God. Then there are all of these other religions, because there were people all over the world (that is the Creation thing and a debate for another day). Who is to say that my God didn't reach out to them. They had never heard of the Middle East or any of that, yet they have religion. Where did they get the notion of any kind of a God. The Native Americans had a God. Where did they get the notion of that. I believe my God is their God and their God is my God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
But they could say the same, and that's when you start to argue about the relative merits of this or that religion. And that's when the reasoning your way to the truth comes in. The spiritual sway has become inadequate for choosing what to believe.
Again, I believe that there is only one God. Call him what you will. That doesn't matter. As for the individual doctrines and dogmas, I don't see it as any different that the 40,000 Christian denominations. So, just add a few hundred more. Lump them all together. OR is OR. Some are right for some and some are right for none. We see flaws in them all. That's why I believe that there are many paths to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
That is one reason why I believe that no religion is the right one and there can be no punishment, separation, purgatory or any other retribution in any afterlife other than by a god who should be ashamed of itself for such arbitrary and unjust behaviour. We were given minds so as not to use them and just rely of faith?
Indeed, the Bible suggests just that - that minds are given us more as a temptation to doubt and the whole Eden thing is about giving into the temptation to think, rather than just do what God says.
For the sake of this discussion, we are assuming there is a God. And, I'm pretty sure He can do whatever he wants to.
This is where we re-enter man in two parts.
The mind is part of the flesh. Flesh is corrupt. It is self-serving and self-centered. It is base. It wants what it wants when it wants it.
The other part is the soul. I call it the conscience. Man's internal set of laws.
Some men don't have very good internal laws. The prisons are full of them. A lot of them go into Politics. Others run big corporations. Others run the streets raping, killing, and pillaging.
Some men have very good internal laws. They abide by the laws of the land, raise nice families, work hard and respect others.
I believe that the difference is the soul part. You don't have to believe in God to have a soul. You can be a great person and be a non-believer. I think this is because the soul is there whether you acknowledge it or not and it balances the flesh whether you acknowledge it or not.
The mind and the soul are usually very much at odds. That is the nature of the beast. If ever you struggle against yourself, then your mind and your soul are warring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
But, as shown above, what God says is merely a cultural, national and tribal convention. This just cannot be true, right, or just. So there can be no religion -or god - specific afterlife. If there is one, it is for everyone, believer in faith or disbeliever in thought.
There probably is no afterlife, on the basis of the evidence I've seen (and I am not forgetting NDE's here) but if there is one, it is for everyone. So, if I am wrong and there is a god, or at least an afterlife - it cannot be, either on Faith or reason, one where punishment, purgatory or any kind of discrimination is dished out on the basis of what you believed - or didn't.
So what if I am wrong? So, nothing whatsoever..
If I am wrong, it doesn't matter and waving the 'what if you're wrong' implied threat at me is an empty threat.
The implied threat of just not existing and the attempt to use creepy decay terrors to frighten us into believing in an afterlife is easily seen through. The decay (or burning) happens, afterlife or not, and is irrelevant.
Now, here is where I'm going to appeal to your soul and not your mind: Please don't call the men with the butterfly nets. OK?
I believe that we are living in "hell". And I believe we each stay here in "hell" until we get it right. I think it is the Catholics that teach purgatory, a place of limbo after death. The Hindus teach that if you don't live a good live this time around, that you have to start at the beginning (as a fly or a worm or some such) and work your way back up to a human. I'm sure there are others, too. I don't believe in the fly/worm theory or "my mom is a tree", or even limbo, but I do believe that we stay with this earth until we learn the lessons God is teaching.
I believe in continuous life - of the soul. The flesh part goes back to dust. it is just a vessel. This was a hard concept for me in the beginning. It is like your hand and your glove. You put on the glove, but it is nothing but a vessel. Your gloved fingers move, your gloved hand waves, you drive your car with your gloves gripping the steering wheel. However, that glove can do none of that by itself. It is the hand inside the glove that can do all of that. Your soul gives your flesh life.
The flesh dies, but, the soul never dies. The Bible tells us that. For us to think a mere 70 or 80 years on this earth is enough to inherit the kingdom of God, is very short-sighted. For us to think that we can learn the lessons of God in one lifetime is very presumptuous.
Where do we learn empathy? Sympathy? Compassion? Or any of the other million kind traits. How do we learn? Generally, it is because we experience something bad. The worse the condition, the more we learn. As we look at another's bad experience, we can't fathom how they endured. Yet, the lessons they learned are the lessons we all will learn. We don't learn very much from the good times. We've all heard the old saying, "walk a mile in another man's shoes". Jesus was preaching that. But, can we, really, without being that man?
In every thread in which I have participated, somebody brings up all the horrible things that surround us. Many ask why God doesn't do something. Maybe He is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Finally, playing...it is more an attempt to use the Socratic method of posing questions and letting the other person supply the conclusions. It avoids hitting the mental block button of putting conclusions that are immediately screened out.
Unfortunately it never seems to work and I have to end up by explaining everything anyway.
Well, as long as you don't have a lion standing on each side of you, I'll let it slide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
P.s apologies for going right off -topic on this one stray throw away remark, but 'What if you're wrong' is one of the dirtier bombs in the theist apologetic armory.
Ha ha. It usually works pretty good, huh?
Of course, part of me hopes I find a different answer! But, this one has be decades in the making. I'm losing hope.
Sorry. 'Ad baculum' "to the stick", so I thought 'baculum' was ok latin for the stick. Ok, I get your argument and let's say for sake of argument that there is a god. Not just an afterlife but a god running it. This life is a 'hell' will do as a label. I get the idea. So you suggest that the only way we can get off it into the relative heaven is....let me check your post again...
It seems to be a sorta combination of learning -curve explanation of the Problem of Evil (God is teaching us lessons) and reincarnation? coming back until we learn the lesson and then we can progress to the next level?
I am not sending for the strait -jacket as that makes as much sense as the other beliefs and more than most.
I'll skip over the questions of where we get empathy with two words Nature and nurture...damn' that's three... and say it is a god's way (I'll have to avoid God as that is the name for a specific god -concept and if you complain, I'll use the term 'It' ) of bringing us on. (Mystic phd would love this..)
So, say that is true, how does believing in this god fit in? If you say it is necessary for moral behaviour, I'll look round for me Ard baculum. If anything I would argue that a lack of belief in a god leads to a better moral code. But perhaps you suggest that it is a personal communion with this godlike entity that though that contact enables the soul to progress.
Well, it makes as much sense as any other god -belief and whether I end up in the ground or get another spin during which me brain may shift to the other side and I'll get a contact with It.... It is a long way short of punishment for not believing and of course, what if I'm wrong - well, no sweat, is my response.
You could be right. How do we know?
I don't believe it, and I don't think I ever could, because I feel that such beliefs get in the way of science, rationality and the ultimate goal of humanity - pointy ears. But I am pretty cool with your beliefs and I hope you understand that the 'what if you're wrong' aspect isn't really a problem. Unlike the thing you see in the shops and is sure to be gone next time you look, you can grab this one next time around.
For me personally, it has to do with my education. You see, in college I studied geology, mineralogy, and crystalography. After college I enrolled in the Gemological Institute of America and studied gemology.
Earth science gives us a rational and credible insight in regards to the formation of rocks and minerals. It takes billions of years. Religious dogmas cannot provide a believable alternative explanation.
For me personally, it has to do with my education. You see, in college I studied geology, mineralogy, and crystalography. After college I enrolled in the Gemological Institute of America and studied gemology.
Earth science gives us a rational and credible insight in regards to the formation of rocks and minerals. It takes billions of years. Religious dogmas cannot provide a believable alternative explanation.
Sure it can, as only a small subset believe it was 6 days. The rest of us accept Genesis 1;1 at face value which allows for billions of years.
Sure it can, as only a small subset believe it was 6 days. The rest of us accept Genesis 1;1 at face value which allows for billions of years.
Ah, the "gap theory" of interpreting Genesis 1:1-2. God created everything, it then BECAME formless and void and dark. I never saw how that helped. At any rate the world we live in is supposed to have been created in a few days as per the subsequent verses, and then to harmonize with what we now know of reality, you have to take the days as metaphors or stand-ins for vast amounts of time. But that's no help when you have day and night created BEFORE the sun and moon, etc. There are problems no matter how you go about it, unless you reduce it to a liberal Christian interpretation where it's 100% metaphor and simile and moral parable and says noting at all about how actual creation happened.
And actually a highly symbolic interpretation produces the most value from the legend: it's a description of the nature of innocence and what happens when it's lost. What happens when we confront our own mortality and take full adult responsibility for ourselves and our world.
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Here, Kitty, Kitty....
and I have to end up by explaining everything anyway.
and say it is a god's way (I'll have to avoid God as that is the name for a specific god -concept and if you complain, I'll use the term 'It' 
If anything I would argue that a lack of belief in a god leads to a better moral code. But perhaps you suggest that it is a personal communion with this godlike entity that though that contact enables the soul to progress. 