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Ok, I get your argument and let's say for sake of argument that there is a god. Not just an afterlife but a god running it. This life is a 'hell' will do as a label. I get the idea. So you suggest that the only way we can get off it into the relative heaven is....let me check your post again...
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
It seems to be a sorta combination of learning -curve explanation of the Problem of Evil (God is teaching us lessons) and reincarnation? coming back until we learn the lesson and then we can progress to the next level?
Yeah, right again.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I am not sending for the strait -jacket as that makes as much sense as the other beliefs and more than most.
Thank you for that. I really do appreciate it.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I'll skip over the questions of where we get empathy with two words Nature and nurture...damn' that's three... and say it is a god's way (I'll have to avoid God as that is the name for a specific god -concept and if you complain, I'll use the term 'It' ) of bringing us on. (Mystic phd would love this..)
Those questions were rhetorical. Thought provoking. I learned that from you.
god is fine. I understand.
Yeah, that's it.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
So, say that is true, how does believing in this god fit in? If you say it is necessary for moral behaviour, I'll look round for me Ard baculum. If anything I would argue that a lack of belief in a god leads to a better moral code. But perhaps you suggest that it is a personal communion with this godlike entity that though that contact enables the soul to progress.
Wait, now.... I said that we each have a soul and the soul is necessary for moral behavior.
That each includes you. That's why you are such a nice fellow!
And,... that the soul is the internal set of laws (rules we live by)
And, ...that some people have better internal laws than others.
That is why non-believers can be good people and Christians can be rotten people.
The soul is from God. It is God-like. Every good thing that one is, comes from our soul. Every bad that that one is (this is true of all of us) comes from the flesh, one's human part. If we could take any man and pull him apart, we would have 2 entities. A Dr. Jekyll and a Mr. Hyde, if you will. But when we put them together, they make one person, like we know most persons to be. There are extremes and there are degrees of persons, but for now, lets just go with the run of the mill persons - like you and me. You're a good person; I'm a good person. You have loved ones; I have loved ones. On and on... The good part of us both is our soul.
That is one part of the situation. The other is that the soul is equipped to deal with this God entity. The flesh part is not. The flesh part will never find Him. The soul part has to find him.
AREQUIPA said:
"But perhaps you suggest that it is a personal communion with this godlike entity that though that contact enables the soul to progress"
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Well, it makes as much sense as any other god -belief and whether I end up in the ground or get another spin during which me brain may shift to the other side and I'll get a contact with It.... It is a long way short of punishment for not believing and of course, what if I'm wrong - well, no sweat, is my response.
That's ok as long as you don't come back as a blind man sitting on the side of the road in Calcutta!
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
You could be right. How do we know?
We don't know. That's the thing about something you can't touch, measure, or weigh. That's the thing about "one's own path", too. You walk it the way you see best. Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
I don't believe it, and I don't think I ever could, because I feel that such beliefs get in the way of science, rationality and the ultimate goal of humanity - pointy ears. But I am pretty cool with your beliefs and I hope you understand that the 'what if you're wrong' aspect isn't really a problem. Unlike the thing you see in the shops and is sure to be gone next time you look, you can grab this one next time around.
I totally understand where you're coming from. My conversations here with you or anybody else are not to try and change someone's mind. That is the problem with discussions. Everybody wants to be right and everybody want to change someone's mind. Do I think I will convert you or that you will un-convert me. Heavens no. Discussion is discussion. It shouldn't be WWW 3. Maybe I should get a big stick, just in case...
I totally understand where you're coming from. My conversations here with you or anybody else are not to try and change someone's mind. That is the problem with discussions. Everybody wants to be right and everybody want to change someone's mind. Do I think I will convert you or that you will un-convert me. Heavens no. Discussion is discussion. It shouldn't be WWW 3.
I totally agree.
I daresay some of the people I engage with here think I am bent on changing their minds. I am not. Most of the rhetoric around here is based on people confusing understanding each other and being honest about the nature of their beliefs, with capitulating to some sort of taboo idea or other. Alas, in some quarters, it IS a taboo idea to consider difference of opinion or thinking to be a Good Thing, a legitimate object of healthy curiosity, and nothing to be afraid of.
You may not realize how unusual you are in these precincts, in that you simply share your experience and path with others, yet aren't in the least threatened if their experience / path is different.
The real reason I write here is for the lurking questioner who is wrestling with the Great Questions. I believe truth has nothing to fear from honest exploration of all arguments and facts that are available. I don't really care whether those lurkers remain or become theists, or join me on the "dark side" ... I just want them to find their own way, whatever that is.
The real reason I write here is for the lurking questioner who is wrestling with the Great Questions. I believe truth has nothing to fear from honest exploration of all arguments and facts that are available. I don't really care whether those lurkers remain or become theists, or join me on the "dark side" ... I just want them to find their own way, whatever that is.
You, n' me and a few others, my friend. I'm grateful for the light of reason shining from your posts and those of other atheists/agnostics/others - including a handful of Christians and my esteemed Muslim CD brother.
I'm here largely to tilt at the windmills of fundamentalist "thought." I want to try to introduce the concept of grey to those whose worldview stubbornly remains black and white.
And if they can accept that, well, there's some hope they'll venture all the way over to the Dark Side and discover a world vibrant with the diversity of colour.
I daresay some of the people I engage with here think I am bent on changing their minds. I am not. Most of the rhetoric around here is based on people confusing understanding each other and being honest about the nature of their beliefs, with capitulating to some sort of taboo idea or other. Alas, in some quarters, it IS a taboo idea to consider difference of opinion or thinking to be a Good Thing, a legitimate object of healthy curiosity, and nothing to be afraid of.
You may not realize how unusual you are in these precincts, in that you simply share your experience and path with others, yet aren't in the least threatened if their experience / path is different.
The real reason I write here is for the lurking questioner who is wrestling with the Great Questions. I believe truth has nothing to fear from honest exploration of all arguments and facts that are available. I don't really care whether those lurkers remain or become theists, or join me on the "dark side" ... I just want them to find their own way, whatever that is.
I agree with you in most aspect of what you posted, but the highlighted sentence has be a bit befuddled. Personally, I don't want people to "find their own way", if the result of them doing so harms others. I want science taught in science class, not the fables that the creationists want taught. I want a secular government where everyone is treated equally, not one based in Shiria law because the majority has somehow "found their way to Islam". As I was able to break free of the fundamentalist indoctrination of my early years, I hope that something I say here will prompt others to rethink their beliefs opt instead for reason and logic.
I agree with you in most aspect of what you posted, but the highlighted sentence has be a bit befuddled. Personally, I don't want people to "find their own way", if the result of them doing so harms others. I want science taught in science class, not the fables that the creationists want taught. I want a secular government where everyone is treated equally, not one based in Shiria law because the majority has somehow "found their way to Islam".
That highlighted passage is mine. I had used it in numerous posts with Mordant. I think he was referencing my feeling out of deference to me. That is my mantra. I believe that there are many paths to God. I believe that finding God is each man's journey alone. Beyond religion, beyond what people tell you to believe, beyond what you are taught at home or church, each man must find his own path and walk his own path to God. Because... ultimately a relationship with God is personal and one on one. I came to realize that a non-relationship with God is one's personal journey, too.
I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood our conversation. It has nothing to do with government or society or rules for the masses. It is each person finding his own path for what is right in his life regarding the God question.
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
As I was able to break free of the fundamentalist indoctrination of my early years, I hope that something I say here will prompt others to rethink their beliefs opt instead for reason and logic.
Then that would be choice and each man walking his own path.
I daresay some of the people I engage with here think I am bent on changing their minds. I am not. Most of the rhetoric around here is based on people confusing understanding each other and being honest about the nature of their beliefs, with capitulating to some sort of taboo idea or other. Alas, in some quarters, it IS a taboo idea to consider difference of opinion or thinking to be a Good Thing, a legitimate object of healthy curiosity, and nothing to be afraid of.
You may not realize how unusual you are in these precincts, in that you simply share your experience and path with others, yet aren't in the least threatened if their experience / path is different.
The real reason I write here is for the lurking questioner who is wrestling with the Great Questions. I believe truth has nothing to fear from honest exploration of all arguments and facts that are available. I don't really care whether those lurkers remain or become theists, or join me on the "dark side" ... I just want them to find their own way, whatever that is.
Oh yes, I agree with all of this. What happened to discourse where people could talk and not come to blows? Why is a disagreement of ideas such a threat? It's beyond me. I do get frustrated when 20 people tell a poster that they have something wrong and the poster isn't willing to discuss it or not willing to go out and do a little research.
I like the exchange of ideas. I've learned a lot of things - not necessarily helpful always, and sometimes in direct conflict to my own beliefs. But, I see that as part of the journey, too. Many times I will find one or two lines in a post that spark something in me. I think that by sharing my ideas, maybe a mere turn of a phrase will spark something in another that might make them say, "hmmm" and maybe a light goes on - whether that light leads to anything or not for them. That is all part of the journey.
I agree with you in most aspect of what you posted, but the highlighted sentence has be a bit befuddled. Personally, I don't want people to "find their own way", if the result of them doing so harms others. I want science taught in science class, not the fables that the creationists want taught. I want a secular government where everyone is treated equally, not one based in Shiria law because the majority has somehow "found their way to Islam". As I was able to break free of the fundamentalist indoctrination of my early years, I hope that something I say here will prompt others to rethink their beliefs opt instead for reason and logic.
John, I hear you, but it is not for me to control others. While it would be a disaster for everyone to find their way to radical Islam or emperor worship a la North Korea or any number of other unsavory outcomes, I don't believe that would be a common likely endpoint of people living mindfully and bringing full awareness of themselves, and the facts on the ground, into play. I believe all of that sort of activity ultimately leads to logic and reason. The quicker it gets there, the less human suffering -- and that in itself tends to argue for logic and reason as an endpoint, because people tend to avoid what hurts and embrace what helps.
In other words left to drift aimlessly people will not find their own path, they will take up paths offered by others, and often those others have the maintenance of their own power structures in mind rather than the general welfare. THAT is the end you fear. But people who are actually searching for their truth will adjust for better results and will, for the most part, ultimately figure out that their illusions, fantasies, prejudices and avoidances can and inevitably must give way to reality as it actually is. There is no other way.
That highlighted passage is mine. I had used it in numerous posts with Mordant. I think he was referencing my feeling out of deference to me. That is my mantra. I believe that there are many paths to God. I believe that finding God is each man's journey alone. Beyond religion, beyond what people tell you to believe, beyond what you are taught at home or church, each man must find his own path and walk his own path to God. Because... ultimately a relationship with God is personal and one on one. I came to realize that a non-relationship with God is one's personal journey, too.
I'm sorry. I think you misunderstood our conversation. It has nothing to do with government or society or rules for the masses. It is each person finding his own path for what is right in his life regarding the God question.
Then that would be choice and each man walking his own path.
I understand, but my argument still stands. If some people find their path to God through "killing the infidels" or ensuring everyone lives under a particular set of rules, why is that a good thing and why would you want that to happen? Personally I don't see a path to any God and am confounded as to how anyone can. Conversation is good and we learn from many of them, but ultimately isn't the objective to find the truth or what is real? Belief or non-belief is not a choice but being convinced via evidence. Of course one can choose what evidence to consider and how that evidence is interpreted, but the resulting believe is not a choice. I can no more choose to believe in a God than you can choose to not do so.
John, I hear you, but it is not for me to control others. While it would be a disaster for everyone to find their way to radical Islam or emperor worship a la North Korea or any number of other unsavory outcomes, I don't believe that would be a common likely endpoint of people living mindfully and bringing full awareness of themselves, and the facts on the ground, into play. I believe all of that sort of activity ultimately leads to logic and reason. The quicker it gets there, the less human suffering -- and that in itself tends to argue for logic and reason as an endpoint, because people tend to avoid what hurts and embrace what helps.
In other words left to drift aimlessly people will not find their own path, they will take up paths offered by others, and often those others have the maintenance of their own power structures in mind rather than the general welfare. THAT is the end you fear. But people who are actually searching for their truth will adjust for better results and will, for the most part, ultimately figure out that their illusions, fantasies, prejudices and avoidances can and inevitably must give way to reality as it actually is. There is no other way.
Respectfully, I don't understand what "bringing full awareness of themselves" even means. This seems like a Chopra-like method of woo which allows people an excuse to behave how they want to behave because they've been "enlightened". Though it's not for you or me to control others, we must help others to understand how some behaviors of some people should not be tolerated simply because of their claims and/or beliefs.
.
Respectfully, I don't understand what "bringing full awareness of themselves" even means. This seems like a Chopra-like method of woo which allows people an excuse to behave how they want to behave because they've been "enlightened". Though it's not for you or me to control others, we must help others to understand how some behaviors of some people should not be tolerated simply because of their claims and/or beliefs.
I'm not talking about mystical enlightenment, but the simple fact that most people go through life with their self-awareness -- the very thing that defines their humanity -- tamped down because they feel that they can't handle it in the face of brute reality and the terror of their mortality. And that is ironically what enables religious ideation. Because they shrink from the contemplation of reality and retreat into the contemplation of conceptions they find less threatening. In its extreme form, they retreat to "just tell me what to think and feel" and give up their power to those who would control them. In less extreme form, they place an inordinate emphasis on doing rather than being. Keep busy consuming and having experiences so you don't have to think (be mindful) about anything.
I believe that everyone's work includes accepting everything that just IS ... even the nasty bits ... and adjusting their priorities accordingly. This includes placing supreme value on the one life we certainly have, rather than meekly deferring all closure to some mythical afterlife. Really accepting that (while avoiding the trap of nihilism) changes your priorities and values in very positive ways.
I think I have demonstrated a desire to help others understand how theistic behaviors and beliefs should not be tolerated simply as the bald assertions that they are. At the same time, not everyone is able to receive this, or come at it from the same direct angle I do. Realistically, I'm not going to change a lot of minds in one fell swoop. Nor is humanity going to change as a whole, in anything but its usual slow tortuous fashion, in fits and starts, and with setbacks. What I think I have reason to hope in is the general direction of the process: from magical thinking to increasingly empirical and rational thinking. Sometimes this progression is completely encapsulated in a single human life, but more often, incompletely / imperfectly. But for humanity as a whole, I see no reason why the trends established in the past 500 years or so and greatly accelerated in the last 4 or 5 generations, should not continue.
I rejoice as much as the next person to see a fully formed adult who is robustly curious and unafraid of where their rational minds takes them in following available data. But I don't despair to see less evolved forms that never realize their full potential. It is all part of an ages-long process.
Now ... do I think the human experiment worth all the past, present and future suffering? At the moment, no. Maybe one day we will achieve so much that it will be worth it all. I hope so. I try to do my tiny part to help make that possibility a reality.
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and say it is a god's way (I'll have to avoid God as that is the name for a specific god -concept and if you complain, I'll use the term 'It' 
) of bringing us on. (Mystic phd would love this..)
If anything I would argue that a lack of belief in a god leads to a better moral code. But perhaps you suggest that it is a personal communion with this godlike entity that though that contact enables the soul to progress.
