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This is going nowhere. If I have to explain...you refuse to get it..
Its not "refuse to get it". Its rather that I think people are willing, even desire, to interpret natural occurrences as supernatural. You wanted a new job. You dreamed about it. You likely told people at work about your struggles and applied for a new job, and got it. All of which could happen naturally. The only special thing about this is your dreaming about it, which anyone can tell you can happen when you think, obsess, or worry over something.
Would you really expect someone to become a Christian because of your story?
What would be your explanation for why children that suffer spinal injuries dont walk again, in spite of thousands of Christians praying for God to heal them? I watched this in person. Millions of people suffer real tragedy that definitely would require a miracle to fix without any miraculous intervention, but God bothered to get you a better job.
I wanted to write tangible evidence, but it wouldnt fit.
There seems to be some derision here regarding not believing unless evidence is provided for God, which is silly if you think about it. What other things in life do you believe in without evidence?
And by tangible I dont mean subjective feelings. The flowers are beautiful, the mountains are beautiful, my child loves me, and so on. Real stuff, even if we cant see it physically. We cant see gravity, but we can see its effects every single time we put it to the test. Not some, not all, every time.
Believers often say, God wants you to have faith. But believing by faith is merely believing without evidence, so we circle back to my question. Why are we expected to believe without evidence?
This all presupposes a sort of God that cares whether we believe in it . For a deist or pantheist type of god, the question would be moot. Such a God did what it did, and doesnt care if you know it did what it did, or whether you believe in it. But what of the God who wants, expects, and even in some cases demands that you believe in it? Why the insistence upon belief without proof?
Dont say " God wants us to have faith", because again, you simply answer my question of why God wants us to believe without evidence by responding "because God wants us to believe without evidence".
Oh, ye of little faith. Hebrews 11:1 tells us that, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Oh, ye of little faith. Hebrews 11:1 tells us that, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The question is why this evidence has to be unseen. Why must there be faith to believe in that for which no evidence is given?What would your answer to that be?
Its not "refuse to get it". Its rather that I think people are willing, even desire, to interpret natural occurrences as supernatural. You wanted a new job. You dreamed about it. You likely told people at work about your struggles and applied for a new job, and got it. All of which could happen naturally. The only special thing about this is your dreaming about it, which anyone can tell you can happen when you think, obsess, or worry over something.
Would you really expect someone to become a Christian because of your story?
What would be your explanation for why children that suffer spinal injuries dont walk again, in spite of thousands of Christians praying for God to heal them? I watched this in person. Millions of people suffer real tragedy that definitely would require a miracle to fix without any miraculous intervention, but God bothered to get you a better job.
Well now I am annoyed. Did not want to turn on the desktop, but it is hard to edit or type long posts on my tablet. Fine. Desktop on with full keyboard at my disposal.
1. You chose to ignore the post where in I said Dream-details at 3AM. Real life 11AM follows dream exactly. You assume I told people at work about my struggles. That would be so stupid. You have worked in a government or corporate setting? How to get fired: rule #1 complain how hard it is.
2. Please quote me where I applied for a different position? You did read my post? Um maybe not.
3. Why would I expect anyone to become a Christian. This thread is about evidence for God. Same result happened last time I told my little story. Atheists had no way to explain away my experience so they made up stuff and scenarios to explain the experience away. Last time one guy suggested I used mind control to will the boss into transferring me!
4. Hey, If you don't understand why God blessed me. Sorry, why not ask God for the answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipaper
Answer this please. So you are not a believer, and to become a believer you want some proof ?
Don't waste your time. Think troll. 99% of time when atheists start threads in a religious form it is to fight for their point of view, not to learn.
One example: God gave me a lucid dream about my job at 3 AM. The exact course of events came to pass at 11AM.
In a nutshell I had a position from hell and had been asking God for help. That dream was about being transferred to a position that was much better for me. Quite the dream. I remember it in full detail to this day.
Don't you just love it when He does stuff like that? He goes all out to show Himself when you are seeking His face, doesn't He? I've been given dreams all my walk and there is nothing quite like them when He is in control. Love His dreams from His Spirit where you are dreaming in broad daylight and colors, instead of the cloudy grayness of "normal" dreams introduced through the carnal mind.
But of course, you tell people that have never experienced such and they have no clue what you are talking about and do everything possible to tear it down and steal it from you. Fortunately for us, it's origination is a kingdom where human hands can't reach. Blessings to you....and peace.
evidence of God is simply a matter of the individual conscience.
If we've (the Western tradition) understood the idea of God correctly - all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present & so on - then by that definition, God's expectation becomes reality.
If God intended us to believe, then He could have designed us that way from the ground up - or from the DNA up, if you prefer. Similarly, He could have simply rigged the World so that the evidence for His existence was overwhelming. For whatever reason, God apparently (to judge by the World around us) chose not to do that. & so God's reasoning (does He even need to reason? I think reasoning is a way to make up for deficiencies in power to alter the World by mere will - but of course, God doesn't have that problem) on this issue is unclear to mere mortals.
It may be best that way - for our development as humans. Whether that was the divine intent or not - is likewise beyond our pay grade. Certainly it's beyond mine. But @ some indeterminate point in the future, these issues may become clear to us.
Well, that answer or explanation falls pretty squarely into the 'It makes no sense to us, but it must make sense to God" camp. The more rational view would be that it makes no sense because it is no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipaper
Oh, ye of little faith. Hebrews 11:1 tells us that, Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Which is why Faith, by definition, is not a good reason to believe anything. Evidence is. The knock on is that a god that is smart enough to understand that and humane enough to make allowances for it (never mind accepting that the situation was of his own making) would either not credibly allow a situation where people were going to continue in doubt and to punish them for that doubt, or would be such a lousebag that the average human is more rational and humane than the god in question.
This is a the essence of the problem of evil and is why it is a very common reason why people come to doubt. It makes no sense that a god-if it existed -would allow such a cockamamie system to continue. Which is why Southwest's explanation is the only one they can come up with -it doesn't seem to make sense to us, but in some unimaginable way, it makes sense to God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipaper
Answer this please. So you are not a believer, and to become a believer you want some proof ?
In a more reasonable discussion one could simply ay "Yes", but we know where that leads
"What would you regard as proof?"
The question is the same as asking: 'What would you regard as proof that the world is flat?"
Because the weight of evidence has piled up so massively against the world being flat, to ask such a question is pointless.
And if we say "I can't think of anything that would convince me the world is flat." the reply would be:
"Well, there you are then. If nothing I could say will convince you, there is no reasons why i should try."
You see the way the trick works?
The fact is that such a massive amount of doubt has piled up regarding the Bible, the God -claim and Christianity, that an entire roll -back of everything that evidence and reason has provided (and Christian apologetics has made strenuous efforts to try to do that) would be needed to delete the evidence against, never mind validating the evidence for.
In terms of reason and evidence, far too much water has passed under the bridge to ever claw it back and all religious apologetics can do is ignore it or deny it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-18-2017 at 11:07 PM..
Care to share some? But as said above, it must be verifiable. Yeah, I know the planet is awesome and kittens are cute ...but that not verifiable evidence for a god.
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