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Do you know why that is? Those that are baptized in His Spirit start out as children. What do children do when confronted with shallow water? They play in it. They splash themselves and each other, they stir up the muddy bottom until it's not clear anymore, having the time of their life. They end up a muddy mess, but most parent's just laugh it off and attribute it to their childish immaturity, and then clean them up, and for sure they don't love them any less.
So it is with those that have not yet progressed from milk to meat, and so it is with the Father's reaction to His children playing in the water of His Spirit, because He knows that they will eventually mature and be in deeper water and use that water to cleanse others. Peace
Anyone can construct an analogy to make an unsupported claim look goof. But the fact is that all the raw data we are given is muddy to a greater or lesser defree and it takes all sorts of techniques to determine what is going on in the murk.
The too -easy guesswork of religion is not a reliable guide to what's going on. Science has the only validated track record in that respect, and what's more, it has shown up too many of the guesswork and faith -claims of religion to be wrong. Thee comes a time when the ongoing claims to be right on those Unknowns - as yet wears a bit thin, and the assertion that they know best on NO VALID EVIDENCE and that those who work on evidence are just muddying the so -clear waters is just impudent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
Why do you think there is no proof? I was an agnostic until I was stopped dead in my tracks by an experience and that experience was explained in a book I had never read before. I changed literally overnight. At first my family thought I was having a nervous breakdown, because it was the only explanation they could come up with for the "stranger" standing in front of them.
Man seeks to change himself with outward things from the outside in, but G-d changes man from the inside out by getting at the root of our problem, a wrong spirit.
There is a spiritual experience that happens to you when you give your heart to the Lord. Arguments about it are worthless because a man with an experience always trumps a man with an argument. Seek to experience the kingdom yourself and no man will be able to take that away from you. Peace
Peace indeed, even though we disagree profoundly, it is not personal, and I am happy for you that you are satisfied with the explanation for your experience. Nor do I mind you coming here and telling us about it, presenting it as evidence and suggesting that we are missing out on something.
However, you should not take it personally when I say that I am aware of several explanations for this or that experience of the mental kind, and, thus the presentation of One interpretation of it does not, I am afraid count as valid evidence.
Obviously...the Religious are capable of an awareness you are not. They are able to "see" what y'all can't. Similar to sighted people compared to blind people.
They have their "proof" through the indirect and anecdotal evidence they assess. This steady stream of anecdotal evidence is not available to you because you are blind to it, while they are not.
It not what THEY are lacking...it is what YOU are lacking, that has you and your ilk holding this same inquisition (Where is your verifiable PROOF?!!) against the Religious for the jillionth time on this board.
Again, what was the "awareness" that the head chopping Muslim had to convince him of his religion?
Again, what was the "awareness" that the head chopping Muslim had to convince him of his religion?
I doubt you will get any kind of answer as Gldnrule has often had debunked his arguments based on a reversal of burden of proof with the resultant claim that we have to produce evidence of...no reason to believe, and he dismisses it when we do.
It is just like Ol' Eusebius on evolution. Whenever we made too much sense he'd revert to 'prove how life started' and no matter what we said, he'd cling to that like a last floating straw, and simply dismiss anything that we said (1).
And should anyone remark that I haven't set out the case, it is that the evidence presented for the existence of a god has failed to make the case and thus there is not a good reason to believe that it does exist (never mind "He" which always struck me as a real banana skin). It doesn't matter if Goldie insists that WE have to produce some proof that God doesn't exist while at the same time waving away everything we prove as 'negative evidence'. He knows as well as we do what the logic is, but it's just a game to him, and I doubt he's even trying to win for God (which he doesn't actually seem to believe exists but is just nature with a different name) but just for himself.
(1) That was always a laugh as he'd say there was no hard "proof" (there's a widely Interpreted term!) and if we could produce hard fossil evidence, he'd reject that as misinterpreted, and if we pointed up incontrovertible proof, such as I did of macro -evolution in the fossil record and morphology (as in the Cetan sequence) he'd admit that he didn't want to know and preferred to rely on Blind faith.
P.s what's the topic...that'll do. I regard my mate Eusebius as one of my best wins. Three strikes. One the denial of the Cetan sequence plus the assertion that evolution theory was cats from dogs (which doesn't work) but the Evolutionists were lying about it and claiming it's cumulative change -which does work). That's like being caught LBW and behind the slips with one ball.
The second was a careful guidance through the evidence of evolution until we got to the Ring -species evidence for speciation (with the loss of breeding between related species that he demanded be explained), and he refused to go any further; simply refused to look at the evidence he'd demanded.
The third was the apparently pointless denial of the site of the 2nd temple. But the point was - he believed (as many of these bods do) that they are divinely inspired with the truth, and so they are incapable of accepting undeniable evidence that they are wrong about anything substantial.
Three strikes -he was Out.
Now Goldie, he has had 2 strikes that I recall. One being this labelling of Nature "God" when even if he denies the semantic trickery of it, he cannot honestly evade the conclusion that - if it isn't planning and doing, it's nature, not God, and if it is - the burden of proof is on him to prove it.
The second strike was resultant from that. The burden of proof IS on him to make a case for God, and - not the cheating claim of presenting personal experiences as evidence - but the ongoing insistence of reversing the burden of proof and rejecting the validity of negative evidence (I'm sure he knows better, but it's a game to him) is the 2nd strike, no matter how much he denies it.
The third is still awaited. I think there was one, but I forgot what it was.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-19-2017 at 11:08 AM..
Why do you think there is no proof? I was an agnostic until I was stopped dead in my tracks by an experience and that experience was explained in a book I had never read before. I changed literally overnight. At first my family thought I was having a nervous breakdown, because it was the only explanation they could come up with for the "stranger" standing in front of them.
Man seeks to change himself with outward things from the outside in, but G-d changes man from the inside out by getting at the root of our problem, a wrong spirit.
There is a spiritual experience that happens to you when you give your heart to the Lord. Arguments about it are worthless because a man with an experience always trumps a man with an argument. Seek to experience the kingdom yourself and no man will be able to take that away from you. Peace
So why arent earnest and sincere Muslims,Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists,Jews, and so on having this spiritual experience when they earnestly seek God through their faith? Are they are fake religious pretenders, even though many suffer and die for their beliefs and sincerely desire to please their version of God as they have been exposed to it, that God doesnt give them this experience?
Again, what was the "awareness" that the head chopping Muslim had to convince him of his religion?
What it is specifically...you will have to ask them...I am not Religious. I think it is different for each.
I am informed of this awareness by the personal testimony of the BILLIONS that are.
Probably the same as it is for any of the jillions of warlike acts against others humankind has carried out. There is always a "reason" they have for doing it...even if it is just that they get off on lt. Humans have always done that...and are right now.
What it is specifically...you will have to ask them...I am not Religious. I think it is different for each.
I am informed of this awareness by the personal testimony of the BILLIONS that are.
My point is that all religious claim some unnatural awareness of a higher being. Since Christians claim their god is the only god, they need to explain why their "awareness" is real while all other religious are fake. I see no evidence any are real or different than the other.
My point is that all religious claim some unnatural awareness of a higher being. Since Christians claim their god is the only god, they need to explain why their "awareness" is real while all other religious are fake. I see no evidence any are real or different than the other.
There are many metaphorical Deities that represent God or that which comprises God. There are stories, poems, and songs about it that "move" most people in some way.
Like any other story, or poem, or music that "moves" and/or motivates people in a way it doesn't for me. I don't doubt that they really are moved, and it was through some sense of things that I don't have.
Religion is that way. It is its own evidence. Just like the sounds that make up the song that some people are made happy, sad, angry, uplifted or whatever by. Even if it doesn't do that for me...I would never claim there is no evidence for it doing that...because Billions testify that it does for them.
I wanted to write tangible evidence, but it wouldnt fit.
There seems to be some derision here regarding not believing unless evidence is provided for God, which is silly if you think about it. What other things in life do you believe in without evidence?
And by tangible I dont mean subjective feelings. The flowers are beautiful, the mountains are beautiful, my child loves me, and so on. Real stuff, even if we cant see it physically. We cant see gravity, but we can see its effects every single time we put it to the test. Not some, not all, every time.
Believers often say, God wants you to have faith. But believing by faith is merely believing without evidence, so we circle back to my question. Why are we expected to believe without evidence?
This all presupposes a sort of God that cares whether we believe in it . For a deist or pantheist type of god, the question would be moot. Such a God did what it did, and doesnt care if you know it did what it did, or whether you believe in it. But what of the God who wants, expects, and even in some cases demands that you believe in it? Why the insistence upon belief without proof?
Dont say " God wants us to have faith", because again, you simply answer my question of why God wants us to believe without evidence by responding "because God wants us to believe without evidence".
Look at the reciprocal
If the "evidence" of your choice existed then what would be the point of life? You wouldn't have a choice to disobey and/or reject the existence of God.
There would've not been a need of us having intelligence, logic and ability to question or reason.
You would have been born, worshiped God all your life, died and entered heaven. Every single human would go through this flat and uniform life cycle. What's the point? You wouldn't have any other choice.
But now you do ... so enjoy your freedom of choice till it lasts.
Last edited by GoCardinals; 04-19-2017 at 01:10 PM..
So why arent earnest and sincere Muslims,Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists,Jews, and so on having this spiritual experience when they earnestly seek God through their faith? Are they are fake religious pretenders, even though many suffer and die for their beliefs and sincerely desire to please their version of God as they have been exposed to it, that God doesnt give them this experience?
Why? Because; for the most common reason, there is ONE PERSON G-d selected as a mediator to Him and they are not calling on Him. You must first have an understanding there are two kingdoms and one is G-d's and His kingdom has rules and standards and laws just like any other kingdom does, that it "runs on". His Word defines those, and the most important one after believing that G-d IS, is that we believe on His Son and seek to have interface with G-d through HIS selected delegate, not one of our own choosing.
I do admire to a certain extent the devotion of some in those other religions. I met a man studying to be a Hindu priest once, who asked me to pray for him, and he told me he had spent 4 hours every morning before going to work, praying for G-d to manifest Himself to him. G-d would that Christians would show that kind of determination and drive to know Him. Peace
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