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I assume you're talking about me and my story of being healed of terminal cancer? Peace
No. I missed that one. Iam giving that as an example of a story that seems to get used by a lot of people (the asshat (1) on the airliner was also used that way, by christian apologists too). I hasn't noted that you'd used it, too. I was referring to the job offer by telephone and remarking that I'd heard something very similar before.
(1) atheist, racist, sexist - whatever you needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am NOT telling you or anyone else to believe because of MY personal declarations. I am telling you there is a verifiable witness for YOU, in the form of a spiritual experience which He will give to ANYONE that comes to Him with a sincere heart, and then you'll know what we're talking about. Peace
Understood. But I am reminding you that the topic(really) is evidence for God-belief. I am also suggesting that you have a purpose in telling us your story - it is to persuade, using it as evidence. I have argued for years (here on the boards) that the 'Not arguing -just telling' subterfuge is inadmissible. Telling a story like that is making a claim and presenting evidence.
And you can take it as such if you want. I am doing no more than saying it isn't valid evidence for me, and saying why. Because of course we need to explain fully or be accused of closed mindedness.
And I am also not buying the bait and net ploy of a convincing Proof of the reality of God in a miracle story and the net of a general appeal to believe your faith claim and buy into it.
To blame your God would be as ridiculous as blaming the flying spaghettini monster, neither exist. What does get on my nerves is people defending and justifying their absurd gods. Anyone who would mimic the logic of this mythical in the way they deal with their families and communities would be labeled a loon.
Then why let it get on your nerves? In a truly just and free society, people would be free to believe as they wished with equal respect.
IF God were to come down and manifest and blow up a city or two and then rebuild it and restore every one who was obliterated, people would follow Him out of fear and not of their own free will. That wouldn't be faith and that wouldn't be love.
A person's personal religious experiences are just that, their own. If they choose to share them with you then fine, people can share but they are special and personal and intimate to only that individual and only they can know the power and faith that it inspires. Maybe another person who is open minded can feel some of that and seek to know and hold God in their hearts on their own, but it is ultimately up to them to open their hearts and minds to the Word and allow Him in. Then, they are in a position to see how God can work in their lives through Faith, love and living according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
To ask people to post undeniable proof in a text box on a chat forum is like asking for a youtube video of God blowing up a city, or something just as cheap and silly and isn't doing anybody any good. You get what you put in and everybody knows what your agenda is.
Both of you points are good. One point one, it could well have been clear that I was not doing well. My exerience in the field was long and excellent. It was a new agency. Wrong section. But the point of the dream was God telling me tomorrow I was going to be transferred. That was the powerful point. Perhaps God inspired the director to not fire me. But to transfer me. I retired from that agency with top evaluations a year and a half ago.
I think you can list the supernatural as one cause if you see fit. That is your right, and I do not dispute your right to believe this. But my point is that there are also a lot of natural things that could as easily have been the cause, and some people see no reason to run to the supernatural explanation when there are natural ones. Its just a different way of looking at things, and in my opinion, a healthier one. Your dream, which is the linchpin to your position, to most will simply mean you dreamt about what you stressed about during the day.
Quote:
Point two does not prove anything. It just poses a big WHY? I've been around long enough to know this point is meant to suggest God either is not real or doesn't fit the way some people would run the universe. I have no answer.
No, it doesnt prove anything, but it makes the point that I see little relevance in a claim that God is worried about you having a job you hate and supernaturally coming to your aid when there are millions and millions of horrible cases out there with Christians on their knees praying for help that never comes. Just like the claims of medical miracles never include things the body cant heal and normally does heal itself, like crushed or severed spines repaired, amputated limbs regrown, retarded people suddenly brought to normal intelligence, etc, etc. It is always the cases in which there are also normal and natural reasons for what happened that are touted as miracles. One zika baby suddenly being healed and receiving a normal size brain would remove all doubt of miracles happening, but there never is one.
I'm not really buying into the claim that God does the small miracles but cant seem to do the big ones for some reason, but this shouldnt call the small ones that have other explanations into question . It does.
But thank you for your civil reply. I have tried to make an honest observation from my end without rancor, and I hope you wont take my disagreement that way.
Last edited by wallflash; 04-20-2017 at 06:58 PM..
IF God were to come down and manifest and blow up a city or two and then rebuild it and restore every one who was obliterated, people would follow Him out of fear and not of their own free will. That wouldn't be faith and that wouldn't be love.
A person's personal religious experiences are just that, their own. If they choose to share them with you then fine, people can share but they are special and personal and intimate to only that individual and only they can know the power and faith that it inspires. Maybe another person who is open minded can feel some of that and seek to know and hold God in their hearts on their own, but it is ultimately up to them to open their hearts and minds to the Word and allow Him in. Then, they are in a position to see how God can work in their lives through Faith, love and living according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
To ask people to post undeniable proof in a text box on a chat forum is like asking for a youtube video of God blowing up a city, or something just as cheap and silly and isn't doing anybody any good. You get what you put in and everybody knows what your agenda is.
On the other hand when a believer claims that there is proof that God exists and maybe people are too stubborn or hateful to see the proof then there is a burden upon that claim. If a person claims that they know God through their personal experiences or through their faith than the person demanding evidence for that claim is wrong headed. In my view the demand for proof should only come against the first type of statement. Use your faith as a tool, I am cool but use your religion as a weapon against others be prepared to be able to back your claims. If someone posted that they saw God blowing up a city and putting it back together exactly like it was I would not immediately accept their claim nor should anyone IMHO. And even if I was to accept that God exist it does not fall that I must also accept that for Jesus as well, or to not accept Mohammad or that the God is actually those of the Hindu religion. That is one of the things I do find a bit odd is for religious people to put down non believers for not accepting the universe or the life within it as proof for a God but it is almost always not just their God but their exact flavor of that God.
If a person believes that their own personal experiences and faith in their God makes them happy, satisfied or good that is great for that person but if they tell me about their experiences and then tell me I cannot have morals or cannot do good deeds because I don't believe in their God not so great.
Both of you points are good. One point one, it could well have been clear that I was not doing well. My exerience in the field was long and excellent. It was a new agency. Wrong section. But the point of the dream was God telling me tomorrow I was going to be transferred. That was the powerful point. Perhaps God inspired the director to not fire me. But to transfer me. I retired from that agency with top evaluations a year and a half ago.
Point two does not prove anything. It just poses a big WHY? I've been around long enough to know this point is meant to suggest God either is not real or doesn't fit the way some people would run the universe. I have no answer.
It would seem to me that god interfered in someones free will, no?
IF God were to come down and manifest and blow up a city or two and then rebuild it and restore every one who was obliterated, people would follow Him out of fear and not of their own free will. That wouldn't be faith and that wouldn't be love.
A person's personal religious experiences are just that, their own. If they choose to share them with you then fine, people can share but they are special and personal and intimate to only that individual and only they can know the power and faith that it inspires. Maybe another person who is open minded can feel some of that and seek to know and hold God in their hearts on their own, but it is ultimately up to them to open their hearts and minds to the Word and allow Him in. Then, they are in a position to see how God can work in their lives through Faith, love and living according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
To ask people to post undeniable proof in a text box on a chat forum is like asking for a youtube video of God blowing up a city, or something just as cheap and silly and isn't doing anybody any good. You get what you put in and everybody knows what your agenda is.
Im not sure why you go on about blowing stuff up as proof. God couldnt proof itself in a more civil way? I can think of an almost infinite number of kind and civil , or maybe just neutral, ways God could make itself evident.
But the impetus of this thread was NOT to try and belittle believers. A believer in another thread made a statement of derision concerning people not believing without proof, and how that was stupid, and so I started this thread to question why specifically it is so silly for people to choose to not believe without evidence. If you notice the title of the thread is not
"Do you have evidence for your silly belief?", but
" Why would we be expected to believe without proof?".
These are two different things, and the second shows no disdain for believers, but addresses some believers disdain for others expecting some sort of proof before believing.
Then why let it get on your nerves? In a truly just and free society, people would be free to believe as they wished with equal respect.
You mean like pastor Steven Anderson? No, while I do respect your freedom to believe the absurd, I do not have to respect your absurd beliefs. It is sad that religion dumbs down society. How it does not resonate to the religious that their beliefs are not unique and that their beliefs are irrational, is mind-boggling.
I can only hope that the religious limit their irrational decision making to their personal lives, yet, it is all to common for them to spill their lack of reason on society.
You mean like pastor Steven Anderson? No, while I do respect your freedom to believe the absurd, I do not have to respect your absurd beliefs. It is sad that religion dumbs down society. How it does not resonate to the religious that their beliefs are not unique and that their beliefs are irrational, is mind-boggling.
I can only hope that the religious limit their irrational decision making to their personal lives, yet, it is all to common for them to spill their lack of reason on society.
There is Zero respect in your post. Please don't pretend to be open minded. You just hate people who do not think like yourself.
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he woudln't be any nicer than he is in the Bible, but at least we'd know he was real.
