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Old 06-01-2019, 04:39 PM
 
261 posts, read 67,465 times
Reputation: 627

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Heaven or hell is our life on earth.
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:42 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,347 posts, read 8,890,323 times
Reputation: 1652
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
It's a story. We agree.

What makes it a "redemption" story, and redemption from WHAT?
The fact that it is full of redemption stories.

The story of Noah
The story of Abraham and Issac
The story of Ruth
The story of Jeremiah and the potter
The parables Jesus told of the lost sheep, the lost coin
The parable of the Prodigal Son
The redemptive work of Christ
The forgiveness of Peter
Paulís Damascus Road experience
The picture of Heaven painted in Revelation
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:44 PM
 
261 posts, read 67,465 times
Reputation: 627
Stories is the key word.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:02 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,014,311 times
Reputation: 4853
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
You have so much presumption in this we need to break it down into smaller parts.



What sin? And what is a "just punishment". And why is it just? Who would determine that?



Ahhh.. so the "just punishment" is hell. Who determined this was just? Why is it just? And what is hell? Where is hell? How do we know this is true? Don't use the bible for you answer.
God determined it.

Quote:
What is a soul? How do we know it exists? How do we know it is an entity that continues after death? And even if it does, how do we know it is eternal? Don't use the bible for you answer.
Because consciousness absolutely cannot arise from material processes. Otherwise we'd be philosophical zombies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie

All the cells and atoms in your body are being constantly replaced. But you retain your soul. Not only that, but you have a unique soul that entered into existence in what would otherwise be a totally arbitrary manner. Why weren't you born 100 years prior to your date of birth? Why weren't you born as someone else? I ask you the same question you asked: who would determine that?

Quote:
Don't use the bible for you answer, as that is circular.
The link I previously posted shows that the Bible authenticates itself. https://christinprophecy.org/article...he-scriptures/

Quote:
Covered by the questions and points above. There is no more evidence for a god or gods, a Jesus or Allah or Shiva, than there is for fairies, leprechauns or the Easter Bunny.
God as a first cause is absolutely necessary. https://www.ligonier.org/blog/self-existent-god/
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,446 posts, read 10,390,177 times
Reputation: 20300
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
You keep dodging my point. Whether you think it applies to you, itís a redemption story.
Yes, it's a redemption STORY.

The only redemption I want is from some of the humans I may have wronged.

And by the way, the religious isn't exactly overflowing with the concept of redemption.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:20 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,347 posts, read 8,890,323 times
Reputation: 1652
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Yes, it's a redemption STORY.
Some stories are true, but regardless, it’s a REDEMPTION story. We agree on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The only redemption I want is from some of the humans I may have wronged.
Good for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And by the way, the religious isn't exactly overflowing with the concept of redemption.
Hence the need to be forgiven (and attempt to do better).
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:31 PM
 
4,323 posts, read 879,824 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
The fact that it is full of redemption stories.

The story of Noah
The story of Abraham and Issac
The story of Ruth
The story of Jeremiah and the potter
The parables Jesus told of the lost sheep, the lost coin
The parable of the Prodigal Son
The redemptive work of Christ
The forgiveness of Peter
Paulís Damascus Road experience
The picture of Heaven painted in Revelation
I repeat, redemption from WHAT? Your list includes genocides, child abuse, lesbian love stories, the visions of an epileptic having a seizure, and and story that sounds like the author was on an acid trip.

Redemption from WHAT?
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:43 PM
Status: "Trump 2020-make liberals cry again" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
16,347 posts, read 8,890,323 times
Reputation: 1652
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
I repeat, redemption from WHAT? Your list includes genocides, child abuse, lesbian love stories, the visions of an epileptic having a seizure, and and story that sounds like the author was on an acid trip.

Redemption from WHAT?
Just like anything else, from the penalty of a poor decision.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,446 posts, read 10,390,177 times
Reputation: 20300
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Some stories are true, but regardless, itís a REDEMPTION story. We agree on that.



Good for you.



Hence the need to be forgiven (and attempt to do better).
By those individuals. Not by mumbo jumbo.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:49 PM
 
4,323 posts, read 879,824 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
God determined it.
Which god? And how do you know it is the right one? Shiva? Thor? Freya? Zeus? Mithra? Yahweh? Allah? Loki?


Quote:
Because consciousness absolutely cannot arise from material processes. Otherwise we'd be philosophical zombies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie
Wrong. Science does not yet know what consciousness is, however, clearly at least the higher order animals have consciousness, and there is some evidence that plants do also. Source

Quote:
All the cells and atoms in your body are being constantly replaced.
This is predominately true.

Quote:
But you retain your soul. Not only that, but you have a unique soul that entered into existence in what would otherwise be a totally arbitrary manner.
First of all, you (and science) need to show that there even IS a soul. Speculation and believe does not make it so.
Quote:
Why weren't you born 100 years prior to your date of birth? Why weren't you born as someone else? I ask you the same question you asked: who would determine that?
I was not born earlier because my mother and father were not yet born, and had not copulated at the right time when my mother had ovulated. Simple science. No "who" involved other than those two.

Quote:
The link I previously posted shows that the Bible authenticates itself. https://christinprophecy.org/article...he-scriptures/
First of all, circular reasoning cannot authenticate oneself. That's like saying Harry Potter books are true because they say it's true.

Let's just take one instance from your link. "The old city of Tyre will never be rebuilt (v. 14)." Guess what, Tyre was never destroyed! It has always existed, and exists today. You're, like most apologists, are probably confusing it with Ushu.

Quote:
God as a first cause is absolutely necessary. https://www.ligonier.org/blog/self-existent-god/
A believe, an assertion, not a fact.
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