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I've stated numerous times that atheists/skeptics/agnostics don't have to lie to alert novices to Christianity's shady past. All they have to do is tell the truth. It's the Christians who have to tell lies to defend their faith and you see plenty of that going on in here all the time. Here are 10 lies Christians tell regularly in an effort to prop up their failing religion. As the the Internet pulls back the covers on Christianity's dubious founding, Christianity will continue to flounder in the 1st world and Jesus, if he is really the Son of God, will continue to do nothing to stop it.
#1.The Bible contains no contradictions. Rubbish! It is loaded with thousands of contradictions. Apologists argue ALL these errors can be explained. Another lie. They cannot all be explained. Like this one, I suppose:
Are we saved through works?
Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore NO flesh be justifiedby the deeds of the law there shall t."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
VS.
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man IS justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him "Keep the commandments."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works." #2.Jesus is well-represented in secular history. Rubbish! Jesus is not mentioned in secular history at all. There is a very controversial passage from Josephus that mentions a "Jesus who is called Christ" supposedly written in 96 CE but most scholars believe it was inserted into the Josephus text by Eusebius, a lackey for Emperor Constantine to give Jesus more credibility as a historical figure. Other than that there are a few mentions of "Chrestians" in the 2nd century and a mention of "Chrestus" by Tacitus in 117 CE. But that's it. No "Jesus the Christ".
#3.There is more proof for Jesus than Julius Caesar. Rubbish! We have Caesar's own words in his treatise, "The Gallic Wars". We have busts of Caesar. We have coins with Caesar's image on them. We have reliefs of Caesar in Roman monuments. We have NOTHING for Jesus.
#4.The apostles died for their faith. Rubbish! We haven't a single mention of any of the apostles anywhere outside the Bible. For all practical purposes the apostles never existed.
#5.Jesus is prophesied in the Old Testament. Rubbish! Jesus isn't mentioned once in the Old Testament. Apologists try to attach obscure Old Testament passages to Jesus to make it appear that way, but none of them talks about Jesus. A few:
...that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene" (Matthew 2:23).
There is no such prophecy in any Jewish scripture
And this:
... that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son. (Matthew 2:15) The prophecy is to be found in Hosea 11:1: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."[?QUOTE
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Your post is to long for me to go point by point, so I will start with you first one.
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#1.The Bible contains no contradictions. Rubbish! It is loaded with thousands of contradictions. Apologists argue ALL these errors can be explained. Another lie. They cannot all be explained. Like this one, I suppose:
Are we saved through works?
"
So Israel is the child God called out of Egypt, not Jesus. But apologists always use their backup excuse, "These are all double prophecies". What about triple and quadruple prophecies?
#6.Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to Jesus. Rubbish! The gospels were all written by literate anonymous Greek scholars 50 to 100 years after Jesus' death.
#7.God answers prayers. Rubbish! Study after study done by reputable research groups proves prayer has no effect on the outcome of a patient's health crisis.
We currently have an entirely separate thread that examines this topic in detail.
#8.Jesus never made a failed prophecy. Rubbish! On no less than four occasions in the gospels Jesus inaccurately predicted he would return within the lifetime of his disciples. Here they are:
a.“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)
b.Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)
c.Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“†(Matthew 26: 63, 64)
d.When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.’â€(Matthew 10:23)
#9. Jesus' life was not based on earlier dying/rising gods Rubbish! On the Rank/Raglan mythotype scale
Jesus scores 91% (20 of 22 points) which puts him in such illustrious company as Aeneas, Arthur, Buddha, Gilgamesh, Heracles, Lohengrin, Odysseus, Oedipus, Perseus, Romulus, Siegfried
Lord Raglan, in 1936, developed a 22-point myth-ritualist Hero archetype to account for common patterns across Indo-European cultures for Hero traditions.
Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
Hero spirited away as a child
Reared by foster parents in a far country
No details of childhood
Returns or goes to future kingdom
Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
Becomes king
For a time he reigns uneventfully
He prescribes laws
Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
Driven from throne and city
Meets with mysterious death
Often at the top of a hill
His children, if any, do not succeed him
His body is not buried
Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs
Read through these 22 points that characterize a mythical hero and see how many can easily be identified as describing Jesus as found in the gospels.
10. Jesus said he was God in the 4 gospels. Rubbish! Jesus is clearly portrayed as "The Holy one of God" and the "Son of man" but NOT God in Mark's gospel. In Matthew and Luke Jesus is portrayed as the "son of God" indicating an elevation to a demi-god. Finally in John we finally see Jesus fully evolved into God status with "Before Abraham was, I AM" The reason I have read is that the pagans the Christian churchmen were trying to convert wanted a god to worship and Mark's gospel did not show Jesus as a god but as man capable of weakness such as in Mark 1:24, "He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them." So they turned Jesus into a god when they wrote John's gospel.
Christians will find it increasingly difficult to bluff skeptics with their lies to overcome these serious problems with their faith. Please feel free to add to the list. I know we can raise the number of untruths up to 100 with no difficulty.
As I said before, I don't hate Christianity. I merely want its dirty linens exposed so people contemplating joining it have full disclosure about the faith before they join.
Your post is to long for me to go point by point so I will only mention some of your obvious rubbish comments..
#1.The Bible contains no contradictions. Rubbish! It is loaded with thousands of contradictions. Apologists argue ALL these errors can be explained. Another lie. They cannot all be explained. Like this one, I suppose:
Nowhere does the Bible say we are saved by works. We are not saved by faith alone because faith is never alone. It always includes works---faith without works is useless((Jas 2:20). Faith and works are opposite sides of the same coin.
The exact 2 examples James gives as examples of works (Abraham offering his son and Rahab receiving the spies, are given as examples of faith by the writer of Hebrews.
#2.Jesus is well-represented in secular history.
Irrelevant. That is not taught in the Bible or in Christianity. Also it is not necessary for Jesus to be mentioned at all in secular history, unless you can prove the gospels writers wrong, which you can't. Also if He is mentioned by one secular historian, why is that not enough? Also Jesus is mention by Tacticus(sp).
Nothing you have posted is accurate about conservative Christianity.
#5.Jesus is prophesied in the Old Testament.
Jesus is the Messiah and the OT is full of Messianic prophecies which Jesus fulfilled.
"He shall be called a Nazarene" (Matthew 2:23).
That was not a prophecy, it was an historical fact. Jesus is called a Nazarene 12 in the NT.
I could show your rubbish about the others, but these 3 are enough to show you are completely ignorant of the Bible and Christianity. Try studying the Bible instead of accepting by faith alone what someone else ignorant of Christianity says.
Mystic is too critical of the Bible to be a Fundie. Yet he is more than happy to adapt stock Christian and even Creationist apologetics to his own Belief -system. After all, even a couple of Mormons who came to the door slipped back into the 'who made everything, then?' apologetic. In fact that is where I got it from.
I always figured Mystic as more of a gnostic type of guy. You know, the kind of guy who believes in Jesus but realizes that the old testament god was a jacka$$ and doesn't want any part of him.
The OT said X would happen. The NT said it did happen...and Mystic believes it!
I remember as a teen (when I was trying to make sense of the clamour of nut -cults and religions all wanting me to Sign Up), a newspaper, I think, coming up with a prophet who I seem to recall predicted an end to the Berlin wall in our own times. They had to wait until the 1990s as I recall before that happened. But it happened and this prophet actually has done better than the Bible. She also claimed to have predicted a lot of past stuff which of course couldn't be checked (we probably could now by asking where she made the predictions). And that's easy enough to claim. And ended up with a nice future claim that somebody is or will soon be born who would do as much good in the world as Jesus. Pity she couldn't be more specific so we could find the bastard and throttle it.
Well, not really related to Mystic's method, which is pretty much the stock national predictions of ruling the world, and applying it to Christianity which (were it not for Islam) came pretty close. He has to take it out of context a bit as these 'Gentile nations' can be seen to be Assyria, Babylon, Egypt at times. But then one can play the hidden prophecy card. While appearing to be about the Assyrian attack on Jerusalem, it is Really about an attack by IsiscommunistNaziatheist secret fundymilitant AtheistcommieNazis on Washington which will be foiled by God's intervention, like they all die of Aids.
This is one way 'prophecy' works - finding a hidden nugget of prophecy about modern Christianity buried in a text about 7th c BC Jewish history. The other is of course the spearthrust method. Take a Psalmtext and then build an entire event in Jesus' life (spearthrust and leg-breaking - ignored and even refuted by the synoptics) to 'prove it'.
Just the same as Matthew with the massacre of innocents 'prophecy', the 'Judasdeath' prophecy and of course the Almah/Bethulah 'prophecy' including the whole point of the Herod nonsense in Matthew's fool nativity "He shall be called a Nazarene" which of course is Not a passage anywhere in the OT.
The apologists glibly explained that it was 'Lost' The Jews are not in the habit of Losing portions of their scriptures. In fact the Bible - apologists proudly swear that not a single letter has been lost. But they throw out an entire passage if if it suits them.
Ad hoc apolgetics, Raffs.
I have to mention one of my favourites - Caiaphas' prediction of the Church. "It is expedient that one man shall die for the people". He simply couldn't resist Interpreting his own words as relating to Jesus' sacrifice, which isn't actually the cause of the spread of Christianity. Though John would swear that it really is - The Draw of the promise of salvation. But God deciding to inspire Caiaphas with the gift of a Prophecy that would have been lost had not some servant earwigged the talk and reported it to John later on? Cobblers. It's Just John looking at his screenplay for Caiaphas and thinking: "Cor that sounds a lot like Jesus' sacrifice. Let's just comment that it was actually a prophecy...." Sometimes they can really be very clumsy. Matthew especially.
That is unavoidable no matter what the issue, Thrill. But the likelihood of finding applicability to a SINGLE ancient individual over more than two plus millennia is extremely low. That makes finding it probative.
You missed my point, Mystic. Your determination/belief that all these prophecies are about one person over two millennia is a purely subjective conclusion on your part, be it Jesus or someone else. Were I to demonstrate that all those prophecies are about Martin Luther King would be a subjective interpretation on my part. Rafius would choose some other historical figure and so on down the line. The prophecies don't say, "The Messiah" or "The chosen one of Israel" or "The one who will be crucified in our place" or if we were really lucky, "Jesus the Christ". All they give us is "he" and that opens the door to anybody we choose to interpret the words around. I've demonstrated convincingly why I think the subject of one of the prophecies is Julius Caesar. A good Biblical historian could make a strong case that every single prophecy in the Old Testament is about Simon bar Kokhba.
Your post is to long for me to go point by point so I will only mention some of your obvious rubbish comments..
#1.The Bible contains no contradictions. Rubbish! It is loaded with thousands of contradictions. Apologists argue ALL these errors can be explained. Another lie. They cannot all be explained. Like this one, I suppose:
[font=arial][color=black][font=arial][color=black][font=arial][color=black]Nowhere does the Bible say we are saved by works. We are not saved by faith alone because faith is never alone. It always includes works---faith without works is useless((Jas 2:20). Faith and works are opposite sides of the same coin.
But "useless" has a different meaning than "never happens".
You missed my point, Mystic. Your determination/belief that all these prophecies are about one person over two millennia is a purely subjective conclusion on your part, be it Jesus or someone else. Were I to demonstrate that all those prophecies are about Martin Luther King would be a subjective interpretation on my part. Rafius would choose some other historical figure and so on down the line. The prophecies don't say, "The Messiah" or "The chosen one of Israel" or "The one who will be crucified in our place" or if we were really lucky, "Jesus the Christ". All they give us is "he" and that opens the door to anybody we choose to interpret the words around. I've demonstrated convincingly why I think the subject of one of the prophecies is Julius Caesar. A good Biblical historian could make a strong case that every single prophecy in the Old Testament is about Simon bar Kokhba.
Your post is to long for me to go point by point so I will only mention some of your obvious rubbish comments..
#1.The Bible contains no contradictions. Rubbish! It is loaded with thousands of contradictions. Apologists argue ALL these errors can be explained. Another lie. They cannot all be explained. Like this one, I suppose:
Nowhere does the Bible say we are saved by works. We are not saved by faith alone because faith is never alone. It always includes works---faith without works is useless((Jas 2:20). Faith and works are opposite sides of the same coin.
The exact 2 examples James gives as examples of works (Abraham offering his son and Rahab receiving the spies, are given as examples of faith by the writer of Hebrews.
#2.Jesus is well-represented in secular history.
Irrelevant. That is not taught in the Bible or in Christianity. Also it is not necessary for Jesus to be mentioned at all in secular history, unless you can prove the gospels writers wrong, which you can't. Also if He is mentioned by one secular historian, why is that not enough? Also Jesus is mention by Tacticus(sp).
Nothing you have posted is accurate about conservative Christianity.
#5.Jesus is prophesied in the Old Testament.
Jesus is the Messiah and the OT is full of Messianic prophecies which Jesus fulfilled.
"He shall be called a Nazarene" (Matthew 2:23).
That was not a prophecy, it was an historical fact. Jesus is called a Nazarene 12 in the NT.
I could show your rubbish about the others, but these 3 are enough to show you are completely ignorant of the Bible and Christianity. Try studying the Bible instead of accepting by faith alone what someone else ignorant of Christianity says.
Have a nice day.
How could you know they were accurate if you didn't even bother to read them.
Irrelevant. That is not taught in the Bible or in Christianity. Also it is not necessary for Jesus to be mentioned at all in secular history, unless you can prove the gospels writers wrong, which you can't. Also if He is mentioned by one secular historian, why is that not enough? Also Jesus is mention by Tacticus(sp).
Gospel writes have been proven wrong. And it is unlikely Tacitus mentioned Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by omega2xx
I could show your rubbish about the others, but these 3 are enough to show you are completely ignorant of the Bible and Christianity. Try studying the Bible instead of accepting by faith alone what someone else ignorant of Christianity says.
You study the bible instead of 1) accepting things by faith, and 2) making things up.
I always figured Mystic as more of a gnostic type of guy. You know, the kind of guy who believes in Jesus but realizes that the old testament god was a jacka$$ and doesn't want any part of him.
It's for Mystic to decide where he fits. In fact I see his as being as sortagoddist as Thrillo or Trouts. And we could be as chummy, were it not that he has come up with this ingenious (though rather Heath Robinson) hypothesis with a mix of Quantum -Woo sciencey -sounding Chophraism and cherry picked Christianity with pink Christian Goo poured over it to hold it together.
And yet there is so much that we agree on. The vile ratbag of the OT. Evolution. Errr..pizza?
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