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Sorry but I can't buy into this.I was raised to like everyone equally and if they hurt me then that person might not be in my own good graces but saying that it is a sin to be with the same sex is like a prehistoric view. Also g-d framed marriage,not true! Someone wrote it in a book and said it was the word of g-d.I personally am not attracted to the same sex but if the people are good to each other and others as well,what they do behind closed doors is their business.Now lets say that you had 2 women in their 80's who are lesbians that have no desire to have sex but just kiss as their form of affection,is it that bad? At least they're not killing or raping people!Not a crime even though not pleasant to watch.
Lancet, if you are so sure about what God said and did, and likewise about what God didn't say and didn't do, why is it that you cannot bring yourself to spell out the name of God?
The Bible DOES say that it is a sin to have a sexual relationship with someone of the same gender. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't mean that it isn't in the Bible. Also, it doesn't mean that you must dislike people who choose homosexual lifestyles. Hate the SIN, not the SINNER. We are all sinners. This is the problem that bchris02 is encountering and it isn't going to help him one bit for you or anyone to say that the Bible is not the Word of God or that the Bible is up for interpretation or (even worse) that certain things stated in the Bible are categorically untrue. He wants help with doing what he knows is right despite how it goes against his desires. That's what you should be giving him.
About the 80-year-old lesbians, in the end, if their desire for each other is sexual at all, that's where it becomes a sin. If it never reaches the sexual realm, are they really any closer than good friends?
If we don't accept the Bible as truth, there will be no real truth. Even if you want to take only the first five books of the Old Testament as the real Bible, you can read this:
Leviticus 18:3-5 "You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord."
A paraphrase goes a bit like this: "Don't do as they did where you used to live, and don't do as they do where you're going to live. Don't do what SOCIETY does. Do what I, the LORD, tell you to do... because I am the LORD and they are not."
Leviticus 18:22- "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
DETESTABLE! Not just wrong- DETESTABLE! It is to be detested!
No matter which way you look at it, the Old Testament condemns homosexuality and so does the New Testament. Certain things changed after Jesus came to earth... but that was not one of them.
So many good posts. I think that instead of praying that God will make you straight, maybe pray that you come to know and embrace God's will for you. It doesn't sound as though it is God's will for you to be straight. It will be a scary step of faith, but you won't be taking it alone. It will be okay.
Understand that it is never God's WILL for you to commit sin. God may allow it but it is not his will. Haven't y'all ever had a situation where it was your will for someone to do one thing but that person did another thing instead? It's pretty much the same thing. God gives us the ability to make our own choices... without that, we'd be nothing but robots. Therefore we need to choose to be within God's will. If God says that homosexuality is wrong, God will not "will" anyone to live a homosexual life.
God may allow us to be tempted with bad things that appear oh so good, to see what we're really made of... but God will not "will" us to be something such as homosexual.
I have to agree the original poster needs to accept his identity first and than work it out with his family. I look on homosexuality as being as normal as a blue eyed person or a dark skinned person. It is just a different genetic code. In time we will find the genetic code which gives a person their sexual identity and I hope when it occurs the prejudice will at last end for that segment of society.
I don’t know if there is any way to bridge the gap a person would find in the religious right due their lack of tolerance for gays. They quote the bible to defend their prejudice, but I think it is based on their need to increase their numbers through population growth. This push for new members is common in many branches of the Christian and Moslem religions. It is much easier to brainwash a child than an adult.
It has always mystified me as why there was so much prejudice. When I look at the basic drive to reproduce; (common in the pre married male of my generation) it always made me feel better when the GQ looking male who dressed well and could match his clothes colors was after a different segment of the population. Without gays the geeks in this would have a hard time finding a mate.
As I said before, many people, especially men in the rural South where I live find homosexuality so disgusting they elevate it into something much bigger than it is. Guys around here are expected to show a hightened level of masculinity. I couldn't mention I was struggling with it without them thinking I was trying to come on to them. Mentioning this to my Christian friends would be the end of our friendship. Its not right that its that way, but its the way it is around here.
Far worse is attending a church like I attended growing up where the doctrine was that if one was having homosexual desires, they had already been given over to a depraved mind (Romans 1) and was beyond hope. I remember one sermon where our preacher said that homosexuality is worse than murder, and is the deepest depths of satanic perversion. Another time somebody in the congregation shouted, "we should round up all the child molesters and homosexuals and put them in gas chambers!". Now that is pure hate. I am currently and have been for the past 10 months going to a different church, though still a very conservative one.
As I said before, most of the posters in this thread have been very respectful. As a Christian, having heard much worse all my life, I honestly don't have a problem with somebody believing it is sinful as long as they keep it in perspective. I am still somewhat unsure on the issue.
As for the sinfulness of homosexuality, the most popular Leviticus 18:22 should not be used in my opinion to condemn gays because its just a few verses over from verses that condemn people who wear multi-fabric garments and many other laws which Christians don't consider binding. The story of Sodom and Gamorrah was describing homosexual gang rape and group orgies, which is a far cry from a loving, monogamous homosexual relationship. That leaves us with Romans 1 and 1 Corinthinas 6:9-10 dealing with the subject. Question is, what was the original intent of the author? What does the original Greek say? And how are we to interpret them? Are they addressing loving, comitted same sex relationships or merely the promiscuous scene that artsyguy was talking about?
It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of things on the religious end. Is the main issue that you have a good relationship with your family and cutting those ties would be extremely difficult for you? I didn't come out to my family until I had been away for about 7 years and had good support group of friends outside my family. By that time, I felt comfortable with myself and didn't need my family for anything. Granted, I never had a really close relatiohship with my parents or siblings in the first place.
Likewise, I didn't choose to have burning desires to sleep with women to whom I wasn't married. I mean, think about this... I know what's the right thing to do... I know that sex is supposed to be for marriage. But then this situation comes along... woman I'm dating says she wants to have sex with me, and deep down I'm thinking "I REALLY WANT IT TOO!". All I would have had to say is the "YES!!!" that I was thinking, and I'd have been able to fulfill one of my deepest desires. I had an aversion to the idea of having sex with someone for whom I wouldn't have been their first, since I was a virgin, but there were a couple of virgin girls along the way who told me they wanted to lose their virginity to me. Words can't describe how badly I wanted to have sex with them... and all I would've had to have done is say "all right!". Within two seconds I could've had something I wanted with almost every fiber of my being.
But I didn't say "all right". I said "no".
Life would have been a heck of a lot easier had I never had those desires... it would've been great if my sex drive had kicked into overdrive only after I got married. But that was not my lot in life. I didn't choose to have the immoral desires... I had to choose to resist them. Every time I had to make that choice, it was not easy... and I always ended up thinking "I wanted her, I still want her, and I could've had her right then and there... but I passed up the opportunity..."
This is why I do not call anybody "gay". In my mind there are no "gay people". There are people who are attracted to the same sex and choose not to resist those desires. This is why I say that they choose a homosexual lifestyle. I burned with desire to commit adultery. You burn with desire to commit homosexuality. Ultimately it's all immoral and it's all sin in the eyes of God. I do understand where you're at. You have to make the choice NOT to sin. We all do. You didn't choose to get homosexual desires but you have to make the choice to do what is right. I can promise you... you'll feel much better about it in the end.
There's a big difference here. You didn't give in to your desires to have sex with women outside of marriage. BUT, you had the option of finding that one special woman, getting married, and then having sex. That's certainly commendable. You still were able to fall in love and have that close bond with a woman. When you're gay, there is no woman who you can fall in love with. NONE!
I too choose to not give in to temptation. I'm in a 14 year, monogamous relationship with every intent for it to go "until death do we part". Sure the animal instinct in me would like to have sex with other men, but my brain understands the impact that would have on my relationship, and our children, not to mention possible negative health consequences. So I choose to do the right thing, and in the long run, a strong relationship with my partner makes me much happier than sex outside the relationship.
So I guess what I'm saying is, it works the same way in gay partnerships as it does in marriage. I'm not "giving in to lust" to be with my partner. I'm sharing my life and love with someone.
bchris,
I totally agree with Montana here. And I am only mentioning it because it brings up the notion of the dreaded DOUBLE LIFE.
I am an honest person and I only feel good about telling the truth. But, in some ways, I think that hiding things can be beneficial. Here's an example from my own past:
Although it is nothing like yours sounds, I also have a Christian upbringing. My family was/is very active in a certain, albeit liberal, semi-Southern, Assembly of God, Pentecostal church. I know the basics of what you are facing even though I experienced a fairly metropolitan version of it.
As a child, I swore a lot from the age of about 8. No sentence went without a swear. Me and all my friends were fascinated and we all swore like Eddie Murphy. It became deeply ingrained in my speech. Yet, I easily switched gears when I was at home and never, ever swore in front of my family because it was a pretty big sin. A definite no-no. I felt that I had a double life. My mother would have been shocked to hear me talk!
Now - let's fast forward. I said that my upbringing was "liberal" - that means that my parents were loving (I think that the definition has been a bit screwed by ther politics of today). When I doubted their religion pretty young, I was vocal about it. My family listened to me and did not punish or threaten me but I was still going to church with them and they didn't budge an inch about what was the truth.
Fast forward again - to the future - my mother's deathbed. She and I have never really hashed out our differences over religion and such since I was a teenager. We kind of buried that fight. But she is as Christian as ever and I wonder about that potential moment where she asks me: "Will I see you in heaven? Will you be there?"
I might say yes. And furthermore, I might believe it at that moment.
Anyway, the whole point of all of this is that I think it is possible for you to live your regular life as a Christian gay man, and be a different person in front of your family when necessary.
I think you already know that your family is not God. There's no reason that you can't or shouldn't serve both.
I know a couple gay men who do this because their families are so incredibley conservative that they'd rather their sons be dead than gay. It's sad, but a reality for some. In both cases, they live nowhere near their families so they can generally live a normal, open life, oustide of dealing with their families.
God framed marriage as only between a man and a woman. Any sexual relationship outside of this framework, according to scripture, is wrong and we must all flee from sexual sin whether it be porn, a lustful eye, flirting, homosexuality, fornication, adultry, whatever it may be. Sexual sin is powerful and strong to resist.
You've just explained the reason for the high divorce rate among Christians. Most Christians can't follow their own rules instead they preach to nonbelievers.
Bchris, you deserve to live your life as you see fit. It would be wrong to deny you self discovery. Even the Amish free their adult children for period of time, to travel outside the confines of their religious beliefs and allow for self exploration. We are all multidimensional, your religious beliefs are but one aspect of yourself. Enjoy your journey.
I do not really want to stray from the "advice" intention of this thread but I need to say a few things.
First of all, I think (actually I know) that one of the reasons the religious and/or those strongly influenced by religion cannot accept the idea that a person could be born gay is because of the awkward position it puts God in. As a result, a circular argument ensues because it cannot be reconciled that God would create someone with an innate orientation that is contrary to "his word." As a result, like with many other things in the realm of religion over the centuries, it stunts any ability to really see nature for what it really is and the proper study and perspective it deserves. This is one of the reasons I think so many religious folks try to use the "he must have been molested when he was young and was made gay as a result" argument. With this kind of thinking, the thought is extended to believe that ALL people who are gay must have been molested or raped as children and worse, are themselves pedophiles and molesters who should be shunned and be watched with a wary eye.
I was watching a program a few weeks ago and it really humbled me when I realized ALL the things that have to come together and work together to bring about a "normal" child in a womb over a 9 month period. All fetuses start out sexless but they pointed out that at about 8 weeks in the womb, a fetus that will become male (in appearance) begins to produce testosterone which will not only create physical male characteristics and identity but also shape the brain to "think" male in relation to being attracted to the opposite sex. This is where the part of the brain known as the hypothalamus comes in. It is partially responsible for sexual attraction. While it is being shaped in the womb, the longer it is exposed to the testosterone that is being produced it will shape a specific identity in the male child that is being shaped, however, this has to be a perfect distribution. If the testosterone is not enough, the fetus can still be born to look like a male, act like a male but grow up to have an attraction to the same sex. In other cases, not enough can bring about a male looking child with overt female characteristics. From this we can extrapolate uneven testosterone levels while in the womb can produce bi-sexual males where the attraction can fall to both sides. The same is true on the female side with estrogen.
I'm not saying they claimed this was etched in stone but TO ME it made some sense. Interestingly enough, they even showed two brothers who were identical twins. One loved sports, was not terribly great in school while the other was more into the arts and loved dance. The one who loved sports was gay and neither one "looked" gay.
About the 80-year-old lesbians, in the end, if their desire for each other is sexual at all, that's where it becomes a sin. If it never reaches the sexual realm, are they really any closer than good friends?
So two dudes can cuddle, spoon, hold hands, kiss, etc but as long as there is no sex its alright? In American culture, such displays of affection are usually only shown among gay men, and straight men don't feel comfortable with that kind of intimacy unless its in a joking way (which you see a lot of among teenagers). There are other cultures where there would be nothing wrong with such behavior, even for straight guys. Makes me wonder why Americans make such a big deal out of two guys touching each other but that is another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian
It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of things on the religious end. Is the main issue that you have a good relationship with your family and cutting those ties would be extremely difficult for you? I didn't come out to my family until I had been away for about 7 years and had good support group of friends outside my family. By that time, I felt comfortable with myself and didn't need my family for anything. Granted, I never had a really close relatiohship with my parents or siblings in the first place.
I do have a very close relationship with my family which right now would be very difficult to break because I don't have any real close friends. Plus I live so close to my family it would impossible for me to keep something like that a secret from them. Even if I didn't tell them, it would get back to them by word of mouth. This is something that living in a large metropolitan area a good distance away would fix.
Lancet, if you are so sure about what God said and did, and likewise about what God didn't say and didn't do, why is it that you cannot bring yourself to spell out the name of God?
The Bible DOES say that it is a sin to have a sexual relationship with someone of the same gender. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't mean that it isn't in the Bible. Also, it doesn't mean that you must dislike people who choose homosexual lifestyles. Hate the SIN, not the SINNER. We are all sinners. This is the problem that bchris02 is encountering and it isn't going to help him one bit for you or anyone to say that the Bible is not the Word of God or that the Bible is up for interpretation or (even worse) that certain things stated in the Bible are categorically untrue. He wants help with doing what he knows is right despite how it goes against his desires. That's what you should be giving him.
About the 80-year-old lesbians, in the end, if their desire for each other is sexual at all, that's where it becomes a sin. If it never reaches the sexual realm, are they really any closer than good friends?
If we don't accept the Bible as truth, there will be no real truth. Even if you want to take only the first five books of the Old Testament as the real Bible, you can read this:
Leviticus 18:3-5 "You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord."
A paraphrase goes a bit like this: "Don't do as they did where you used to live, and don't do as they do where you're going to live. Don't do what SOCIETY does. Do what I, the LORD, tell you to do... because I am the LORD and they are not."
Leviticus 18:22- "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
DETESTABLE! Not just wrong- DETESTABLE! It is to be detested!
No matter which way you look at it, the Old Testament condemns homosexuality and so does the New Testament. Certain things changed after Jesus came to earth... but that was not one of them.
I never stated that it wasn't in the bible. I stated that G-d didn't write it. Man supposedly wrote the book illustrated by G-d.By not spelling out G- O -D is because in the jewish religion we were told not to write the name if it could later be discarded(like a slap in the face). As I said before even though I am jewish my views are "mostly" agnostic so why would I want to disgrace his name? Everything else can be forgiven as described in all books but at the same time I won't side with either view and i'll just keep on my never ending quest for the RIGHT answer for as long as it takes.
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