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Reffing YSMs' little injection of humor, that coyotes can hybridize with wolves. And therefore, God & Noah only had to have a couple of "dogs" on board to create all the now-known species of dog" on the planet.
You know: "Without no evolvin' go on roun' heah...."
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Originally Posted by sanspeur
So....This has been know for a long time...What does that mean to you?
It suggests that just a few stray dogs, two in fact, created all the now-known and diverse dog type species on this planet, san. Simple, huh?
There are also some exceptions in the lion-tiger community, and a fairly recent polar-grizzly hybrid. As I've noted before, biology is not so cut and dry as the scientifically illiterate fundies would hope, and the definition of "species" has been clarified because of their endless irrational assaults on logic in the past twenty years. It's not something that an be defined absolutely in a Reader's Digest version, but that's exactly how it's then treated, with a scolding "Nyeah nyeah" from our unread friends.
Example: since polar bears absolutely DID quite recently evolve (within the last 80k - 100k years) from the more inland and terrestrial grizzly bears (see: Grizzly-polar bear DNA lineage tracking studies in the past 5 years...) , they doindeed prosess the ability, however culturally unlikely it would be (the known example was in a game farm situation, and the poor old boar was probably getting a bit, well you know.. horny... being all on his own...).
The only reason such events happen is because of unique conditions. The usual statement about reproductive isolation is that once an organism's descendants have travelled down the path into an entirely new niche, they often lose the biochemical ability to reproduce with their ancestors. But not, as had been explicity noted in the literature, absolutely. There is still the usual cultural and behavioral isolation. Tigers = forest animals. Lions = veldt/plains animals. Hardly likely to meet in the coat closet, now are they?
There are many other defining characteristics of "species", including morphological differences, capacity to digest certain specific types of substrate or food type, as well as structural and behavioral niches, etc. Thus a cave-dwelling, insect eating bat is NOT the same species as a tree-dwelling, fruit-eating bat. A big old wolf does not "begat" a small, tibetan fox. When or if a wolf and a coyote hybridize, the results looks like a wolf-coyote hybrid, NOT a nice white Arctic fox. Not to mention that hteir DNA is distinctly different. To think such things happen in a generation or three speaks volumes of the vast illogic and illiteracy of the fundy mind.
You could (and many Christians do, in a wan attempt to kill the idea of ANY special differences) say we're all just the same mega-species on this planet, with just a few minor micro-adaptations between YSM and a cave dwelling bat. So be it. But then we'll just redefine what happened between them with some new name.
Regardless, it amounts to the gradual change in genotype & thus phenotype caused by chance mutations and a few other known and documented genetic mechanisms, dutifully recorded in the organism's reproductive DNA, and then reproduced in their offspring to better adapt them to available but unfilled niches.
In other simpler words, they Evolved.
The now-counted 40+M "micro-variant" types now counted so far on this planet didn't do so all in the past 2000 years; we have ample factual evidence of that. We also have those confounded fossils of dinosaurs that Noah failed to mention, and that are never mentioned in the bible, nor their fates (I suppose they just had the giant dead T-Rexs and Brontosaurs swept up by City Engineering when they dropped dead in their tracks in Jerusalem... "Get this smelly THING outa here, but whatever you do, DON'T write it up! But when that guy over there with all the followers burps, write THAT up").
Therefore in order for such vast diversity to have been present after the fantasy flood, with no evolving allowed, and no quick dog-into-bat-eared fox hybridization happening, Noah would have to have held countless millions of types animals on his little leaky unstable barge. Then, in sufficient numbers for each to succssfully re-populate an ecologically devastated planet. You know; about (minimum) 20 pairs of each. minimum. Times about 40M types, at least (there's probably more like 100M types on the planet right now). 800 million. Easy.
Oh no; the barge is filling up fast, friends!
Didn't happen. The grown-up kiddies who really really really like this fairy-tale (stomping of little feet, fists pounding their tiny play tables...) will never give up, but then, they also want a lollipop after they clean their rooms too.
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(PS: let's come up with a quick and short descriptor for the use of a single anecdotal incident that's then applied without even a blink to an entire planet-wide situation. This is a common and annoying little fundy Christian ploy that seems to completely convince the great unread masses...)
Just stumbled across it while out on an afternoon hike? And not a single person on these 'hikes' bothered to take a picture?
The more you persist in this fantasy, the more delusional you appear.
Not to mention how C34 has continually stated how restricted access to the site is by the Turkish government. Yet people "accidentally" come across it while wandering in these mountains?
According to Hebrew University Prof. Sergio Della Pergola. Israel's Jewish Poplation now has surpassed that of the United States.
By the year 2020, 46% of all Jewish people on the earth, will live in Israel. And by the year 2030, the majority of Jewish people will live in Israel.
...and he knows this how? Based on present statistics perhaps? I can remember the time when it was predicted that by now, most of the world was going to be wiped out by AIDS. The prof is simply 'guessing'.
Most people who have seen the Ark, have done so only by accident, or in a time when they could spend only a couple of hours there, and thats because of weather. The Ark of Noah is not in a cave, yet, a large section from the Ark was found in a cave back in 2007. Both Turkish authorities, and a team from Japan, have confirmed that. Satellite images from space have also confirmed the presence of a large manmade object buried under the ice near the top of Ararat. And it is stated that the object in question appears to be broken in two. Of course, Ed Davis stated that he saw the Ark up there in the 1940s, and it was broken in two.
I didn't say anything about the entire ark being in a cave. However, based on the dimensions you've cited of the large section found in a cave, as well as guessing from the Chinese photos of the cave entry, it's pretty hard to imagine how anyone managed to drag such a large object around the mountain, not to mention squeezing it through the opening. Is there any indication that the Chinese team went inside for a closer look?
Again, you're the one who posted the link about the Russian Expedition. That account does not seem to suggest a broken Ark. The recent expeditions were not a matter of accidently stumbling across it on a lark. Weren't they supposed to be known anomolies? In addition, such a trek climbing up the mountain is no easy matter. Regardless, it's hard to fathom that no one took any close up photos at any of the locations, especially the pieces in the cave. Seems to me these people would have planned on taking a camera with them and would have been snapping all kinds of photos from inside. If they only observed it from outside the cave, then what they saw could have been anything. The photos posted are extremely difficult to make anything out without resorting to wild preconceived notions.
Adding to your own inconsistencies, you've now said NO ONE HAS SEEN IT BECAUSE IT'S NOT TIME YET. If no one has seen it yet, then all of those who have not only claimed to have seen it, but also took samples, are making blatently false claims. And why no close up, detailed photos of it? I can't believe any of these people would have trekked all the way up the mountain without any cameras.
It suggests that just a few stray dogs, two in fact, created all the now-known and diverse dog type species on this planet, san. Simple, huh?
I did not say that, and you know it.
God made all the individual, single, kinds, and told the "kinds/spirits/" that He created to be fruitful and multiply their own kind. He set the barriers and they were not to be crossed naturally. Within the "kinds", God created all the "diversity" and the boundaries of those "diversities", in the original single, kinds.
A fox is not the same "kind" as a wolf/dog, and hybrids of fox/dog/wolf/coyote seem to be infertile, when reported -and they have been reported. But within the "kind" that a wolf/dog/coyote" is, there is inbreeding, with fertile offspring.
As to the kinds: barriers were crossed in the created kinds by the fallen angels and the rebel offspring of them and the rebel offspring of Adam, both before the flood and after the flood, by gene splitting and making chimera -monsters- of many sorts, as the writings of 1 Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees all report. God cleansed the earth [consumed sin on the earth] of all the corrupted flesh the first time by the flood of Noah. He said in the Book of 1 Enoch that fallen men and fallen angels would do this again [even though the angels who did it before the flood were chained in Sheol, as a warning, other angels also fell and did do that after the flood, as Moses wrote]. YHWH said that He would not cleanse the earth again with a flood, but would cleanse the earth, the next time, by fire.
Anyway, as to created "kinds", they can inbreed and have fertile offspring, naturally. Some limitations are caused by variations of isolated families/tribes of the kinds, but those variations can also be undone, naturally, as easily as they came about in the first place, over time, with a constant variety arising within the kinds -as tides flow and ebb; because God created within each kind all the possible, natural, diversities of that kind.
Last edited by yeshuasavedme; 11-03-2009 at 09:51 AM..
It's still only 5% of world Jewry living in Israel.
40.6%. The Jewish Population of the World
% of World Jewish Population
1 Israel (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Israel - broken link) 5,313,800 40.6%
God made all the individual, single, kinds, and told the "kinds/spirits/" that He created to be fruitful and multiply their own kind. He set the barriers and they were not to be crossed naturally. Within the "kinds", God created all the "diversity" and the boundaries of those "diversities", in the original single, kinds.
Thank you; you made my point. All of those things you call "kinds" which we have simply and more accurately sorted out into "species" are generally reproductively isolated, and thus HAD TO BE ON THE ARK if there's no evolution allowed post-flood. And therefore, the math tells us how many had to be on that impossible barge. About 800 M minimum.
As to the kinds: barriers were crossed in the created kinds by the fallen angels and the rebel offspring of them and the rebel offspring of Adam, both before the flood and after the flood, by gene splitting and making chimera -monsters- of many sorts, as the writings of 1 Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees all report.
Oh dear... here we lose touch with reality. This is still going on then?
Well, not by any documented process seen by either faith-based or actual rational researchers.
God cleansed the earth [consumed sin on the earth] of all the corrupted flesh the first time by the flood of Noah.
Yeah, those corrupted earthworms and dolphins that all perished in the vast de-salinated oceans.
He said in the Book of 1 Enoch that fallen men and fallen angels would do this again [even though the angels who did it before the flood were chained in Sheol, as a warning, other angels also fell and did do that after the flood, as Moses wrote]. YHWH said that He would not cleanse the earth again with a flood, but would cleanse the earth the next time, by fire.
Well then we're safe, since there never was a global flood that covered Mt. Everest. The Chinese, I'm sure, would have noticed, and yet...
Anyway, as to created "kinds", they can inbreed and have fertile offspring, naturally. Some limitations are caused by variations of isolated families/tribes of the kinds, but those variations can also be undone, naturally, as easily as they came about in the first place, over time, with a constant variety arising within the kinds -as tides flow and ebb; because God created within each kind all the possible, natural diversities, of that kind.
Oh. Right. You mean Evolution, right? Well OK then!
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NightBazaar, you quoted Tom's mention of the following:
"Satellite images from space have also confirmed the presence of a large manmade object buried under the ice near the top of Ararat."
"Confirmed" now? He ref's George Stephens' photo analysis. Riddle me this one: how can a guy, looking at old-tech photo analysis of the quailty seen in those Cuban Missile Crisis photos of the same era, see through the mentioned thick ice, to "see" an item buried under it? I'm confused again. Those Cuban pics were hardly capable of saying what they were looking at:
(and remember: these were taken from approx. 60,000 feet, not 100 miles up, from a U-2.)
Even George said that since he couldn't ground-proof it, it was just speculation, but now, suddenly, it's FACT. BTW, Stephens confirmed his biases by adding "Who would have dragged a man-made object up there anyhow? So it must be The Ark!"
Not knowing that there's actually a boat up there, not knowing what it's made of, not knowing it's size, and somehow seeing it all through thick ice, he "concludes" it's the Ark. Now this is good science! Beliefs of Convenience, remember?
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I know: let's call them TomFacts! "It's an Established A TomFact!" A TF™. Then there'd be no refutin' it's status as precisely that, just it's status as real, true FACT.
40.6%. The Jewish Population of the World
% of World Jewish Population
1 Israel (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Israel - broken link) 5,313,800 40.6%
OK, I'll buy it. Thanks for the info.
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A tf**!!
