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u ASSUME a full pattern hit, which is bs, of course. It is quite likely that, because the shotgun is chosen with the idea that they DON'T have to practice or aim, that it will be an off center, partial pattern hit. You ALSO assume that you will HAVE a shotgun when you need it, which is not at all likely, since you don't carry it everywhere around the house, garage and yard, as you can ccw a pocket pistol. Power doesn't mean a thing if you can't get it on target, before the bad guy hits you.
u ASSUME a full pattern hit, which is bs, of course. It is quite likely that, because the shotgun is chosen with the idea that they DON'T have to practice or aim, that it will be an off center, partial pattern hit. You ALSO assume that you will HAVE a shotgun when you need it, which is not at all likely, since you don't carry it everywhere around the house, garage and yard, as you can ccw a pocket pistol. Power doesn't mean a thing if you can't get it on target, before the bad guy hits you.
some of what you say MAY be true, BUT to poo poo a shotgun is also BS!! I'll keep my trusty shotgun and let you play with whatever you want to.
the man DID say 3 of them, and throwing things as they charged. So your reply with the shotgun was of no validity at all. Who says that you will only be attacked by a single person? The single shot gun is a joke, put forward by people who are way too cheap to be skilled at anything, basically. At 10 ft, that shot pattern will be only 2-3" wide, so you can easily miss a man with it, and have you ever fired a shotgun inside of a small room, at night, with no ear protection? try it sometime and you will forthwith never want a shotgun as a home protection arm. :-)
I have fired guns from .22 long rifle to cannons that fired 8” exploding projectiles that weighed 206 lbs, and just about everything in between. I’ve fired dozens of fully automatic sub machine guns to clip and belt fed air and water cooled machine guns. The calibers ranged from 9mm - .45 for submachine guns and 30 through 50 caliber for the belt fed machine guns. I’ve fired at night, in the rain, during the cold both indoors and out. The Marine Corps has trained me in infantry warfare demolition. I’ve been trained in basic survival in the eastern woodlands, the Mojave Desert, and cold weather.
After the Corps, I’ve fired more rounds of ammunition through fully automatic sub machine guns and belt fed machine guns as well as blowing more things to pieces as a civilian. I’ve trained countless people how to shoot a wide variety of pistols and rifles with accuracy teaching them how to shoot a 1911 .45 ACP at 25, 50, and 100 yards and rifles out to 200, 300, and 500yards as a civilian, so I feel that I am fully qualified to share my experiences with a wide variety of weapons, and it’s been my experience that the average person lacks the inclination to diligently learn how to proper and safely use a firearm, as well as maintain any skills that I’ve taught them.
Of all the firearms that I’ve trained people to use, the pistol, especially semi autos were the hardest for them to master, and the shotgun was the easiest for them to at least become proficient. I didn’t say it’s just a point and shoot weapon. I stated that it was the easiest to learn how to shoot. Most people were afraid of hard kicking rifle calibers and 12 gauge magnum loads. Hence, I suggested a 12 gauge with 2 ¾ 00 buckshot because the average person with minimal firearms training and afraid of heavy recoil will find the non-magnum loads tolerable.
You’ve stated that a single shot shotgun is a joke. I put it out there for people that are poor. I based my information on my experiences and I wrote to a wide audience, but targeted people that are inexperienced and run from poor to wealthy, so a used single shot 12 gauge may be the only viable self-protection weapon available so many people. I’ve seen them for as little as 40 dollars at yard sales. Additionally, it doesn’t take very long to reload any firearm save for high capacity 30 round magazines if you don’t have stripper clips and must load each round individually.
Additionally, I did not state that you’ll only be attacked by one person. Reread my post, I thought I was pretty clear. For the average person that’s not proficient with firearms and has no military style training that includes taking on several threats simultaneously while alone, if you can’t hit a person with a single shot, multiple follow up shots with a pump action or semi auto will probably miss as well. The person obviously is incompetent or lacks the basic training to engage multiple targets, and no gun, regardless of its magazine capacity and rate of fire will help them, and they should be thinking of avenues of escape and evasion rather than trying to take on 5 or 10 bad guys that are bent on killing.
While it’s true that shotguns, even sawed offs, don’t spread a 30 inch pattern at 10 feet, they still shoot a spread pattern that grows with distance, so a hit from a shotgun is more likely at ranges of 30 yards or less with an inexperienced shooter than they will be from a shooter that has minimal firearms training and is trying to use a pistol. This even holds true for people that are expert shots. It’s a fact, it’s easier to hit targets at all ranges out to 40 yards with a 12 gauge than it is with a pistol. I don’t understand your argument.
I’ve fired at night and without earplugs, but normally I always wear ear protection. I don’t understand your point. I fire ball powder, so there’s rarely any muzzle flash with rifles and it’s been my experience that 12 gauge and a non-magnum pistol have minimal muzzle flash. Was there flash? Yes, but it was minimal. Now I’ve got to ask, what’s your point behind this? If it’s pitch black, you’re going to be firing at sounds because they’re will be no line of sight, and that’s fine if you’re alone, know your surroundings, and can assume that it’s probably the enemy. In any other scenario, night firing in pitch-black conditions or minimal sight or no line of sight is generally dangerous to surrounding friendlies.
The 12-gauge shotgun is the cheapest most versatile firearm available for both the novice and expert. With slugs, it’s fairly accurate out to 100 yards, and it will take doves/pigeons with minimal damage to meat and kill game as large as black bears. It’s been tried and proven for more than a century that the 12 gauge with 00 buckshot is a one shot stopper of people at ranges of 30 yards or less.
Hence, I did not understand one point of your argument.
I’ve taught countless people how to shoot in my lifetime, and it’s been my personal experience that pistols are very hard to learn. It’s no impossible, but it’s difficult. If I could only have one firearm, I would never make it a pistol. Pistols are too niche specific. I’d take a pump action 12-gauge shotgun.
Hmmmm, I taught my gun fearful wife in about an hour. I started her off on a .22, then moved to a .38 but she liked the 9mm best when she envisioned emptying a full clip into an imaginary person hurting our daughter. She spit out 15 rounds in about as many seconds all center mass at self-defense distances.
Look, it takes years to learn how to shoot like a Navy Seal or a member of the FBI HRT but most folks don't need to learn to shoot a handgun that well. Folks get killed everyday by amateurs wielding all sorts of handguns since 90% of shootings take place at distances less than 15 ft. Defending oneself with a handgun just doesn't require the skills that will get you on Top Shot™,
some of what you say MAY be true, BUT to poo poo a shotgun is also BS!! I'll keep my trusty shotgun and let you play with whatever you want to.
You know I've watched a lot of big macho guys who have never fired a 12 gauge get all fem after feeling the recoil. Just like a handgun may not be for some folks, neither is a shot gun. All things are relative.
u ASSUME a full pattern hit, which is bs, of course. It is quite likely that, because the shotgun is chosen with the idea that they DON'T have to practice or aim, that it will be an off center, partial pattern hit. You ALSO assume that you will HAVE a shotgun when you need it, which is not at all likely, since you don't carry it everywhere around the house, garage and yard, as you can ccw a pocket pistol. Power doesn't mean a thing if you can't get it on target, before the bad guy hits you.
It is far easier to hit a target at 12' with a shotgun than a handgun...
A shotgun typically needs less practice to become proficient with than a handgun
A shotgun is typically cheaper in cost, and ammunition than a handgun.
A shotgun hit will in most probability produce more damage to the target at in home ranges.
Look at the FBI stats average number of shots to stop a suspect with a handgun is 3, average number of shots to stop a suspect with a shotgun is one. Average engagement distance is under 15 yards.
We're not talking about CCW either, we're talking home defense, my shotgun at home is rarely more than about 10' from me and it's always got a full load cocktail alternating 3" Bucks and 3" Black Magic slugs. That's not 5 minutes to go run get it. In 5 minutes I could break out about 10 rifles and load and rack them.
Don't get me wrong handguns have their place, they're good for concealment. However in comparison to shotguns and rifles they're marginal for self defense. The Mozambique drill is a minimum pattern to use with a hand gun in defense. There is no Mozambique drill for a shotgun.
The obvious conclusion after absorbing the wisdom of the last few posts on this thread is that no firearm is effective--handguns... shotguns... rifles... all worthless. Buy a bag of brick dust and learn voodoo.
In all wisdom you are pretty dead on. In most cases a baseball bat is more effective. But I bet on the side of lead.
Back in the 80's I had a home invasion. I had the choice of my glasses or my pistol. I choose the Colt .45 and made two gut shots in our intruder. Of course before firing I had reached out and touched my lover next to me so I knew the adult in the doorway was not her. The intruder was definitly hit by both bullets, two blood sprays. I had a few items missing when I looked over my home. My lover, her son and I were alive, all good.
You know I've watched a lot of big macho guys who have never fired a 12 gauge get all fem after feeling the recoil. Just like a handgun may not be for some folks, neither is a shot gun. All things are relative.
You may be right, BUT did they fire the shotgun in the middle of a battle? when the juice is flowing freely you really don't feel the recoil [maybe later you do] BUT true on the last.
A person who has a handgun, some ammo, and the factory manual is a formidable opponent even if he has never fired a gun before. It's really very easy.
I fired my first shot from a .38-40 revolver almost sixty years ago at the age of ten. I've been shooting handguns ever since. I remember when two-handed shooting was reserved for long distance or experiments. It still is for people who love to shoot.
Last edited by Happy in Wyoming; 08-04-2011 at 06:29 AM..
This all sounds like Ford vs Chevy to me. Any volunteers to play "bad guy" and enter a home in which the occupant is armed with a shotgun? How about a rifle? A handgun? Or even a Springfield 1873? I'll pass on all four accounts. Pulling a trigger is not rocket science. I'd be just as dead with a 45-70 through my chest or several 00's as I would a fancy-shmancy 9mm.
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