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Most people find math a struggle. I can remember when I was in elementary school. I would always complete those times tables before the rest of the class did. I was really good at arithmetic. Then algebra came. No big deal. I was able to learn how to dissect those quadratic equations without any problems. Geometry and Trig weren't undo able at all either.
Then came Calculus.... I fell flat on my face here. I would try to do all the homework, and get help from tutoring, and still not understand what the hell I was doing. My professor saw that I at least tried to do all the work and curved my grade to a C, Yes, a curved C. Thankfully my degree did not require Calculus 2, because I would not have been able to build on that at all.
If some of these trades require math skills on the level of Calculus, then I can see why there is a shortage.
I am in the same boat. Alegbra is French to some people but there are people who can speak it. For me, Calculus was Russian and I only had a clue the second time I had it and it was due to having a curved B from my entire semester of calculus while we only had at best one third of it.
Math is tough for MANY people these days. We make it tougher math skills and many throw up their hands.
Sadly, in the corporate world's desire to eliminate high labor costs they have eliminated and / or made themselves vulnerable to massive institutional knowledge loss. I think too many of the short term management reward mindset miss this altogether.
Agreed. Companies start to wake up when productivity plummets because one of the old timers took a day off and there was no one to wipe the behinds of the rest of the employees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by parried
The new american way is that nobody gets a chance at anything. We're going down folks.
I just provided several solid examples of those chances you claim that don't exist. Not only that, but they were in a profession you plan to pursue. Do you even take yourself seriously?
Apprenticeships are coming back in force. Both large and small manufacturers around the nation are responding to a well acknowledged skills shortage by bringing on young, green candidates with strong math skills, as well as a willingness to work.
I kid you not when I say there is a very real, and very frightening shortage of these vital workers who make the world go round. The U.S. accounts for about 1/5th of the world's industrial output, and yet the average worker is on the verge of retirement.
One roadblock is the lack of candidates willing to take on these challenging and demanding jobs. They are not easy, and the pay for some is less than years past adjusted for inflation. Engineers have been complaining about the same thing though, and yet, people are more willing to spend 4 years of their lives and thousands of dollars to become one. We may not need 20% of the workforce toiling over metal parts, but we don't even have 2% of the population considering these jobs. All I can say... America better get it's priorities straight
These are still solid middle class jobs that can pay $30/hr or more at the right company. Apprentices receive all of their education free of charge. Many companies even provide measuring tools on the job. One company I received a call back from recently in South Carolina that is starting candidates out at $26/hr. If you can't do well on that than the wage isn't the problem... It's you
Outside of this...
The small business hiring gauge is reading in the pre recession levels.
"Employment at companies with fewer than 50 workers, such as SustainU, is stronger now than before the last recession, while larger businesses are still lagging behind, according to data from Automatic Data Processing Inc., a manager of employer payrolls."
Seems small businesses really are doing the bulk of job creation. Problem for many in my industry is a frightening lack of qualified candidates. As the business owner where I work said today.... "The skill level of candidates is appalling. In most cases, they aren't even there". Simply put... You can't create a job if you can't find somebody to do it.
The problem is that too many companies shifted the burden of training onto employees. And I think many of the people who are financially able to pay for extra education figure if I am going to go to school and pay for more education, then I'm going to college.
I think many of the people who would covet those blue collar jobs that require long term on the job training, can't afford the training.
I know at my employer, which is a petroleum refinery, now covets people who went to a Junior College and who earned a 2 year Process operator degree to hire as refinery operators.
A lot of new hires come in with debt from that program. It is an example of the problem.
This is one reason so many of us shake our head, this entire thread is not about going back to school, in fact it is about forgetting about college and going and finding a blue collar job to work as an apprentice type to learn an industry. I have seen it done by many many people.
Fact is if someone is truly supporting a family, and cannot find a job in their field, how do they not reinvent themselves at least somewhat? Unemployment runs out sooner or later, and one day the parents are going to decide it is time for their kids to grow up and do something other then sit around complaining that there are no jobs in their field.
I know all about having to reinvent myself, and it has nothing to do with me being 37 now, and getting a break because of it. maybe some of you are too young to really know what happened in 2008. It destroyed a whole industry, between home builders, real estate agents, appraisers, and mortgage people. I was a mortgage broker, and real estate investor. You want to talk about how companies do not want to hire you due to your lack of experience, try being guilty by association (a handful of criminals) and having every newspaper, TV news report, politician, and trade group blame your occupation for the downfall of the entire economy, despite the fact that as many realtors, bankers, appraisers, and real estate investors went to jail for their crimes as Mortgage brokers did. Now add to that your own trade associations viewing it as a chance to force out the smaller businesses, and competition and climbing into bed with the politicians on a witch hunt, all while covering their own asses and lining their pockets.
For an example of what really happened to many of us go watch the old Eddie Murphy Dan Akroyd movie Trading Places. That is very similar to what happened to me, friends I had known for years suddenly acted like they had never met me, executives of companies that had offered the world to me a few weeks before the market tanked blocked my emails and would not accept my calls, members of my own family had the nerve to question my integrity. to put it mildly my life could have been over, in fact I know several people who committed suicide, a couple that ended up in the mental hospitals, and more then a few that climbed into bottles and/or drugs to never been seen or heard from again.
To add to it, I was self employed, many of the people who were mortgage brokers were also contract employees, despite making into the 6 figures I did not get unemployment, and at 31 years old with 2 children my mother was not in the position to take us in and let us sleep in the basement, my father lived out of the area, and due to my daughters medical conditions we could not legitimately leave the area to stay near him. My wife and kids had to eat and have somewhere to sleep so I had to find something.
It is amazing the jobs you will take when you have no other options, and refuse to let your kids sleep on the street. After the collapse I immediatly got a job working as a temp doing data entry for a accounting firm, making $8.50 an hour by the end of tax season I was considered a full tax preparer. That job allowed me to work 2 days a week during the offseason, so come April 16th I had to get another job, which was working at a landscaping supply store as a laborer loading trees, manure, sod, and plants onto customers pickups right there next to the illegal immigrants. I worked 3 days a week and 12 hours a day for a whole $9 an hour. That fall I started taking classes online as I was able to get grants to pay for online courses, however my landscaping job ended, so I then went to work for a phone room, making $9.25 an hour plus bonus (which was always set after the month had already been completed).
From there I went back to work full time at the accounting firm, in january, the pay was finally starting to get a little better at $12 an hour, I stayed there for a total of 4 tax seasons and ended up making $22 an hour. However after the 1st tax season I was laid off, and had sold off every thing of value we had accumulated during my time in the mortgage business, so I had to find another job, I went to work in the oil field getting the job specifically because I could prove my work ethic and ability to do blue collar work through references from the landscaping company. I worked 70-80 hour weeks with the schedule being 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, On my weeks off, when we actually got them, I would do everything I could to stay ahead on my school work and turn it in when it was due. It was a good system and I was making pretty good money, however my wife could not take caring for my daughter by herself anymore and I was forced to come home when the CPA firm called me in January.
the following April I was laid off again, so I found another job working for a company doing phone sales, that job paid $9.50 a hour, but with the money I had saved from tax season and working in the oil field I was able to stay there 9 months while going to school on campus. Once again come january I went back to the accounting firm full time until April 15th, this time I was allowed to stay on very part time working on the books for a couple of companies. To add to my income I got a job driving a taxi on the weekends, and started my own accounting and tax prep company with the accounting firms blessing as they were not looking to grow and my options were limited. That year I worked 30 hours a week driving a cab, 10 hours for the accounting firm, went to school part time, and had my own accounting firm that took up a few hours a week.
3 years later I still have my own firm, and to date it has been successful allowing me to hire employees and putting me back to a decent income with decent hours at least 8 months out of the year.
I tell this not to brag, but to show that someone making $120,000 a year, can lose everything, start over, and if they have to take any job they can find, they can work hard and figure out how to make it work. I grew up with a step grandfather who loved to tell stories about his life during the great depression, he worked some good and some terrible jobs, and honestly i figured if he could put up with that and do what he did then what I had to do was not so bad. Sure from 2007-2010 sucked, and I was miserable, but I looked at it as having no other choice I did what I had to do. I took a terrible situation and did the best I could with it. Every poster on this board can find a way to make it work if they have no other options, but it will mean some severe sacrifice (my wife and I did not pay for us to go out to dinner for 4 years, we moved from a 2800 sq ft house to a 1200 sq ft townhouse, both of our cars were over 10 years old for much of the time, and we are just now getting around to replacing furniture that was bought 10+ years ago), and leaving your ego at home (I got laughed at even by family members when I told them what I was doing for work often times, and the illegal immigrants thought it was a joke when they were told I was working with them but they grew to respect my by the end of that summer), and at least for me it took having a clear plan on how I was going to get out of the mess and get back to providing a good life for my wife and kids. I do not suggest my route for others, in fact if you have better options then go for it, but there are plenty of ways to reinvent yourself, and honestly working at finding burrs on pieces of metal sounds much easier than what I went through.
sorry for the long post, but this is something that I keep seeing, and felt the need to finally respond as it drives me nuts when people say they are stuck in their career or the field of their degree.
I never understand people like you. I mean here you are barely making it for many years by the skin of your teeth and you can't see it. SMH. When you have no margin for error, then any problems that may arise that you didn't personally experience might have completed derailed you or someone in your situation.
The fact that you didn't sink is not the norm in your circumstance. To not see how blessed and lucky you are, to not see that there for the grace of GOD go I and to not see that if things had of turned out slightly differently for you that things could have gotten much worse for you, and to not understand that other people in your situation did have even more unfortunate things happen to them is a waste of a learning experience for you.
If all you got out of your experience is that other people suck and aren't trying or sacrificing, then what a waste.
Agreed. Companies start to wake up when productivity plummets because one of the old timers took a day off and there was no one to wipe the behinds of the rest of the employees.
I just provided several solid examples of those chances you claim that don't exist. Not only that, but they were in a profession you plan to pursue. Do you even take yourself seriously?
However it takes time and money. Just read Iamme's post which I quoted as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73
The problem is that too many companies shifted the burden of training onto employees. And I think many of the people who are financially able to pay for extra education figure if I am going to go to school and pay for more education, then I'm going to college.
I think many of the people who would covet those blue collar jobs that require long term on the job training, can't afford the training.
I know at my employer, which is a petroleum refinery, now covets people who went to a Junior College and who earned a 2 year Process operator degree to hire as refinery operators.
A lot of new hires come in with debt from that program. It is an example of the problem.
The fact is because of more necessary debt (versus unnecessary debt,) companies will need to pay higher wages. Why, because the people cannot live on the low wages while paying higher than ever COLs and the debt they need for their new job. We've gone from a low COL era where the only debt you take on is unnecessary debt (say car loan, credit cards and home mortgages) to that a higher COL and the necessary debt of going through a college program (whether it is two or four years.) These issues and lower pay are a problem for the companies (lower customer base for consumer goods and services) as well as attracting talent they do not want because they priced themselves out for most of the talent they actually want and need.
There's a constant mantra in this nation, especially since the economy went off a cliff, that we need to "reinvent" ourselves. Nobody, of course, bothers to mention where the money to do so is supposed to come from when people are out of work or how they are supposed to pay their bills until they are deemed "worthy" by Blessed Corporate America to be paid a living wage years down the road. Oh, and we're all supposed to "reinvent" ourselves a bunch of times over our working years. Right... the reality is, most people cannot afford to do this even once, much less multiple times.
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That's true. However, for a select minority - the kids in high school who ARE thinking about the next step - and who DON'T have the means to go to college - and whose parents WON'T co-sign a loan ....
These opportunities are a lifesaver, and I am thankful that andywire has surfaced them!
BTW, Rambler -- I'm next door in NOVA and had been following your story. Congrats on finding another engineering job! Meant to congrat you sooner. Man, this joint (DC Metro) ain't what it was five years ago, that is for sure... some really capable people have been ground into hamburger. Back then, there was work available both for the capable as well as for the entrenched nincompoops.
The fact that so many muttonheads are still dug in, still producing nothing, and still protected, though - that says to me that there is still WAAAAYYYY too much money sloshing around, aimlessly looking for a home. We'll be able to tell the tide has turned when companies can no longer afford to keep on the doofuses. The chicken will have come home to roost once the companies that shelter same are called out and blackballed, after a track record of poor performance and excuses.
NSA aside, there's a good reason why the rest of the country resents the Metro DC area. Even though I'm here, the "let them eat cake" attitude (towards the rest of the country: "now fork over your taxes, me boyo!" ) and the rampant cronyism (protecting the psychopaths, punishing the capable) makes me gag as well.
This is one reason so many of us shake our head, this entire thread is not about going back to school, in fact it is about forgetting about college and going and finding a blue collar job to work as an apprentice type to learn an industry. I have seen it done by many many people.
....leaving your ego at home (I got laughed at even by family members when I told them what I was doing for work often times, and the illegal immigrants thought it was a joke when they were told I was working with them but they grew to respect my by the end of that summer), and at least for me it took having a clear plan on how I was going to get out of the mess and get back to providing a good life for my wife and kids. ....
Jwiley, kudos! Don't apologize for the length of the post. What you accomplished is worth a book.
Most people find math a struggle. I can remember when I was in elementary school. I would always complete those times tables before the rest of the class did. I was really good at arithmetic. Then algebra came. No big deal. I was able to learn how to dissect those quadratic equations without any problems. Geometry and Trig weren't undo able at all either.
Then came Calculus.... I fell flat on my face here. I would try to do all the homework, and get help from tutoring, and still not understand what the hell I was doing. My professor saw that I at least tried to do all the work and curved my grade to a C, Yes, a curved C. Thankfully my degree did not require Calculus 2, because I would not have been able to build on that at all.
If some of these trades require math skills on the level of Calculus, then I can see why there is a shortage.
FWIW - I spoke at length to a former HS teacher (now retooled in Cyber) at a professional event. He told me that where most kids fall apart in HS is after Intermediate Algebra. "Conquer Intermediate Algebra", he said, "and you can do any job out there".
IF you have good instruction, and are diligent about doing the problem sets, I even think Calc is do-able. Get an arrogant teacher or one who doesn't actually understand the problems himself (my case), and it becomes ten times more difficult. Many public school teachers DON'T actually understand what they're teaching, and the union system coddles them nevertheless.
About the conversation with the former HS teacher...I heaved a deep sigh of relief. Calc and I were not friends either. Did not prevent me from excelling in what are considered to be "math-y" fields.
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