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Trades, yes. Machining, no. Every technological advancement puts you closer to being out of work. There are TONS of Machinists now who spent a lifetime developing skills that automation has now made obsolete. No reason to assume that's going to change.
And I know $30 an hour is definitely not typical of machinists:
That says $19 for an average. And Machining is well-known as a trade that has like zero young people and zero new people coming in in general. So a large group of newer apprentices isn't going to skew the mean wage too much. Conversely, I'd argue that the average wage of HVAC is probably inaccurate because a lot of people are going into that trade. Thus, a bunch of $30/hr Masters averaged in with a bunch of $10/hr apprentices -- you get a mean wage of $20. On the low-side of what you can expect to make in HVAC.
But Machining shouldn't have that problem since - as you said - there's no "griping", self-entitled, and lazy you g people going in. Theres no low-wage apprentices skewing tye mean. So $19 is about where you can expect to peak as a machinist.
In general, when choosing a career I'd avoid anything that can be automated.
I see you are finding the bad side of the trade. It is true that technology is reducing the need for machinists, but at the same time, we hardly have enough with the skills to match the current marketplace demands. Companies up here even rent billboards advertising CNC jobs. What the trade has largely eliminated were the brainless and unnecessary work. Years ago, you would have armies of workers drilling holes in machined parts on bridgeports and drill presses. Today, that can all be done in the same set up with live tooling capable CNC machines. The trade doesn't need hordes of average machinists because of this. It needs well versed, highly functional machinists who know all areas of the job inside and out.
Every place is different. These days, it is the machinists on the side of the ever evolving technology. In order to remain viable, we have had to train and retrain just like every other profession. It's there for those who want it, but it is a challenging profession and shouldn't be taken as something below the thinking level of other career professions. We get too many people who couldn't make the cut in random professions or college and think machining will be a safe fall back.
As you can see, they vary widely. It depends mostly on how competent you are, how fast do you think on your feet, how do you approach problems and what does the company need. Some companies need average and they pay average. Others realize they must pay a bit more for a higher quality worker. I must say, $14/hr is not bad money for some 18 year old who is interested in becoming a toolmaker. That's part of my role today and I love it. The work is fun, challenging, and rewarding in ways that go far beyond money. I wouldn't trade my job for 6 figures.
You kind of remind me of myself after I got laid off during the recession. I bounced around a bit going from one crappy job to another. Didn't learn much because the companies specialized in brainless work or stuff I had no interest in. I really started learning after I found myself in a job shop doing diverse work from nearly every sector of the economy. At that point, I was forced to approach problems independently and find the best way to tackle jobs. A brain becomes a very important asset in those settings, far more than any tool you can order in a catalog. Job shops don't always pay that great, but the experience you gain is priceless.
There are schools that teach this stuff, and also internet sites that offer valuable information. The best way to learn though is on the job, which is why I'm glad to see paid apprenticeships returning.
Business loves apprenticeships and interns...always have as well. But there is a dilemma...
Pro for business:
Cheap labor.
Consistent pool of available labor.
Interns/apprenticees generally do not receive benefits.
Con for business:
It takes time/resources to train.
Interns/apprentices often leave once enough skills are required.
Consistent, yet low-skilled, workers.
Even if paid, might only work a few hours per week.
Generally start at the bottom, or in some instances, even below the bottom.
Pro for intern/apprentice:
Great work experience/acquiring new skills.
Helps build resume.
Credible recommendations.
Con for intern/apprentice:
Internships can be low, or no, pay.
Apprenticeships can take years, sometimes without pay.
Apprentices always receive benefits, so long as they are offered to regular employees. Compared to interns, I would bet apprentices are making more on average, and receive benefits more frequently. Union pipefitter, electrician, and plumber apprentices around here start above $20/hr and receive all of their education free of charge. Many non union apprentices also receive free schooling. Even today, my employer contributes to our training by paying for various classes and specialized training. I'm actually taking a couple classes right now online. Anything that provides additional knowledge and skills is a benefit on par with your weekly paycheck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73
FWIW - I spoke at length to a former HS teacher (now retooled in Cyber) at a professional event. He told me that where most kids fall apart in HS is after Intermediate Algebra. "Conquer Intermediate Algebra", he said, "and you can do any job out there".
IF you have good instruction, and are diligent about doing the problem sets, I even think Calc is do-able. Get an arrogant teacher or one who doesn't actually understand the problems himself (my case), and it becomes ten times more difficult. Many public school teachers DON'T actually understand what they're teaching, and the union system coddles them nevertheless.
About the conversation with the former HS teacher...I heaved a deep sigh of relief. Calc and I were not friends either. Did not prevent me from excelling in what are considered to be "math-y" fields.
I read somewhere that to pass HS, kids only have to be proficient in math up to an 8th grade level in some districts. Yup, just keep lowering the bar and let the private sector sort them out Well, when you have a society full of people incapable of securing employment while demanding services from the state without contributing a thing, someone will have to pay for that... There won't be enough productive Americans to keep this ship afloat!
But just listen to some of the whining these days... It's the employers who are supposed to make up for their deficits in reading, writing and math
This country is a mess!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by parried
People in our society, in this case the business/employer crowd are evil these days. They only care about making a profit. They aren't just handing out jobs to anyone off the street. There is nowhere in the country where you can do such a thing. No employer is just handing out jobs these days, in the boom times maybe but not now.
God forbid someone wants to make a buck! We should be lining them up before the firing squad as we speak! But as you can plainly see, they really are handing out jobs. That is, jobs for people who can demonstrate potential for future returns. Nobody is going to invest in someone who thinks businesses are evil and jobs should be given to the least qualified of candidates.
Perhaps you should start your own business and you can hire all of societies misfits. I sure wouldn't be willing to invest in such an enterprise though.
Idk, I've done service calls at Machine shops and to me the job looks just like it sounds - you're paid to operate a machine. It's the machine that does the actual building and work - not the machinist. He's just there to provide materials to the machine and punch in the necessay code. You're not making anything - really. And it's not a trade like automotive or plumbing that you can come home and use around the house too.
Plus you're stuck in a shop all day. The shops I've been in - NO WINDOWS. Another thing - concrete floors. Yes, there's concrete at construction sites too, but at least there you can move around. At a machine shop you're stuck tending to your machine all day. Most people want to interact with their world - not watch a machine doing the work that would've been done by a skilled professional 30 years ago. It's gotta be MEGA boring working in those buildings.
Honestly it sounds pretty cut-throat to me if only the most fanatical machinists can make a living. Most people aren't looking (and rightfully shouldn't be) looking for a spiritual oddessey at work. They just want to do their job, make a decent living, and go out on Friday. So if machining is as cut-throat as you say - and with automation it'll just get even worse - then I wouldn't think this was a career for most people.
Like, I'm not trying to belittle the trade. You think people should be joining this trade - I'm just telling you why they aren't.
The problem with the skills dilemma is we will always be missing what we need whether it true or not. Technology will always be evolving to a point that we cannot get at that point. Moore's law exists in every place and not just technology.
The problem with the skills dilemma is we will always be missing what we need whether it true or not. Technology will always be evolving to a point that we cannot get at that point. Moore's law exists in every place and not just technology.
That is true. It's ridiculous to think that you can have a rapidly changing economy and not have a more or less permanent underclass as well as putting people out of work as you said.
Idk, I've done service calls at Machine shops and to me the job looks just like it sounds - you're paid to operate a machine. It's the machine that does the actual building and work - not the machinist. He's just there to provide materials to the machine and punch in the necessay code. You're not making anything - really. And it's not a trade like automotive or plumbing that you can come home and use around the house too.
Plus you're stuck in a shop all day. The shops I've been in - NO WINDOWS. Another thing - concrete floors. Yes, there's concrete at construction sites too, but at least there you can move around. At a machine shop you're stuck tending to your machine all day. Most people want to interact with their world - not watch a machine doing the work that would've been done by a skilled professional 30 years ago. It's gotta be MEGA boring working in those buildings.
Honestly it sounds pretty cut-throat to me if only the most fanatical machinists can make a living. Most people aren't looking (and rightfully shouldn't be) looking for a spiritual oddessey at work. They just want to do their job, make a decent living, and go out on Friday. So if machining is as cut-throat as you say - and with automation it'll just get even worse - then I wouldn't think this was a career for most people.
Like, I'm not trying to belittle the trade. You think people should be joining this trade - I'm just telling you why they aren't.
I guess I don't follow. If you're referring to CNC machines, there's many ways to skin a cat. All you're doing is telling the machine what to do. It's no different than if you were using conventional machines. Well, there is one difference... You're not cranking handles and you have much more energy at the end of the day
I've done both and while there is some satisfaction in the old methods, the newer stuff is much more efficient and can really allow you to take your abilities to the next level. The way things are done is no different though. Tools behave the same way, and the same rules apply.
It's far more than just "punching some codes" though. You've gotta know how things are going to behave, and plan all steps of the process in advance. There are countless problems that can and do pop up along the way, so you really have no idea what to expect sometimes. I deal with a lot of heat treated work and things get stressed, warped, and these issues require plenty of critical thinking and problem solving skills.
And when you say a machinist is not really doing the work... This I really don't understand. A web designer uses HTML or whatever other programming is out there to build web sites. In the end, they have something that they can see and say they created it. It's the same for these high tech manufacturing jobs. They are in control of everything. There's many ways to screw these jobs up, so yes, I'm quite satisfied when I have a finished product that meets specs and passes QC
And when you say things are cut throat... No more than in any other profession. As a matter of fact, there is very little competition around here, hence the reason some employers have used billboards to attract qualified labor. We have tons of operators, but skilled and trained machinists are a dying breed. That's one reason so many apprenticeships are popping up. It should be more competitive, but it isn't. That's one reason every company I have worked for is so focused on additional training. I've learned CNC, conventional machining, turning, grinding, welding, etc all on someone elses dime.
Either way, there are tons of other fields out there, many with an aging workforce soon to retire. I expect to see apprenticeship opportunities popping up across the country in a wide variety of occupations. Time to invest in a nice pair of work boots America
Let me guess, some folks up the corporate food chain paid for the series of articles expecting (eventually) government to foot the bill for a community college, voc. ed. programs. 1000 fools will spend their last savings to get qualified by securing appropriate certifications and degrees, then, in all their wisdom, folks up the corporate food chain would cherry pick 100 lucky dogs to swallow carcinogens for $12/hr, 900 will be left with debt and no job to blame themselves for failing to capitalize on the wonderful opportunities that are out there (for the right people, naturally). Ingenious scheme. Corporate America learned how to use meager peon' wages to subsidize corporate budgets and luxurious lifestyles, not only this, labor commodity blames itself, it doesn't rock the boat no matter what, it's priceless from the social control standpoint.
One of the rationales of keeping workers wages down and management wages up is referring to labor as two legged commodity, not unlike iron ore. It's the genius of management and stockholders organized that worthless (by itself) labor mass to manufacture all those wonderful goods and services, and thus management & stockholders deserve lion' share of the profits. In the light of this how "ethical" is to ask labor commodity to pay for its own training? They don't ask iron ore to pay for its enrichment, do they? Especially considering that >50% of the self-trained labor units will never ever use their training in appropriate lines of work.
Now, let's imagine an average labor unit, who gets in debt to secure a degree in X just to find out that he's not the person employers are looking for right now. A person bootstraps, hits relatives for food and shelter and somehow manages to earn certification in Y just to be told that employers are actually looking for somebody with training in Z. It's plainly obvious that an average labor unit has neither resources nor time to play this stupid self-adjustment game for too long. But without slightest doubt, he'll be labeled as a slacker who doesn't invest in himself and thus deserves what he gets.
Last edited by RememberMee; 09-11-2013 at 07:07 PM..
Long, long, time ago. I mastered basic CNC EDM milling in 2 or 3 days, 2 weeks more and I could machine quite intricate, usable and sellable shapes, In 2 months I was milling intricate & tiny 3D shapes few believed can be manufactured with those particular EDMs. Yes, it was a government institution, I would have to spend thousand$ of my money, years of my life to qualify for $12/hr in the eyes of corporate HR. Makes perfect sense.
BTW, machinists don't live too long and frequently die in pain, all that crap they soak in adds up. Wanna shorten your life for 12/hr? Bosses need you. Don't forget about trucker' shortage too those live even less, on the average.
I guess I don't follow. If you're referring to CNC machines, there's many ways to skin a cat. All you're doing is telling the machine what to do. It's no different than if you were using conventional machines. Well, there is one difference... You're not cranking handles and you have much more energy at the end of the day
I've done both and while there is some satisfaction in the old methods, the newer stuff is much more efficient and can really allow you to take your abilities to the next level. The way things are done is no different though. Tools behave the same way, and the same rules apply.
It's far more than just "punching some codes" though. You've gotta know how things are going to behave, and plan all steps of the process in advance. There are countless problems that can and do pop up along the way, so you really have no idea what to expect sometimes. I deal with a lot of heat treated work and things get stressed, warped, and these issues require plenty of critical thinking and problem solving skills.
And when you say a machinist is not really doing the work... This I really don't understand. A web designer uses HTML or whatever other programming is out there to build web sites. In the end, they have something that they can see and say they created it. It's the same for these high tech manufacturing jobs. They are in control of everything. There's many ways to screw these jobs up, so yes, I'm quite satisfied when I have a finished product that meets specs and passes QC
And when you say things are cut throat... No more than in any other profession. As a matter of fact, there is very little competition around here, hence the reason some employers have used billboards to attract qualified labor. We have tons of operators, but skilled and trained machinists are a dying breed. That's one reason so many apprenticeships are popping up. It should be more competitive, but it isn't. That's one reason every company I have worked for is so focused on additional training. I've learned CNC, conventional machining, turning, grinding, welding, etc all on someone elses dime.
Either way, there are tons of other fields out there, many with an aging workforce soon to retire. I expect to see apprenticeship opportunities popping up across the country in a wide variety of occupations. Time to invest in a nice pair of work boots America
Yeah, it's work in-so-far as something is getting done, but it's not really what I would consider a trade as the supposed tradesman here is not building anything. Shoot, even troubleshooting problems with a CNC machine is usually done by electricians. I don't doubt that some critical thinking is required, but if we're going to call coding and troubleshooting code a "trade" then posting accounts to a spreadsheet may as well be a trade also. Forget that - if I'm going to mess around with computers all day I'm not going to do it in a shop with no windows while standing on concrete all day.
People join the trades because they enjoy building, working with hand-tools (versus operating a machine), and interacting with their world. I don't think Machining really provides that anymore - WAY too automated. And while a lot of this is subjective if you're going to compare writing HTML to, say, building a house - and imply that it's basically the same experience since both involve creating something you can "look at" - well then clearly we have different ideas about what enjoyable work is. The vast majority of people are closer to where I'm coming from. That's why nobody is going into machining now. Just another automated job to them. I know at my local community college they'll guarantee a job to precision machining graduates - guarantee - and STILL they have trouble attracting people. And yet the HVAC and Plumbing courses have waitlists of 10-20 people every semester. Even the Welding classes are full. No wonder, those shops look like horrible places to spend 40 years of ones life.
It's a dead trade.
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Well, when you have a society full of people incapable of securing employment while demanding services from the state without contributing a thing, someone will have to pay for that... There won't be enough productive Americans to keep this ship afloat!
