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No ma'am. I am happy for anyone that has a job. What does not make me happy is when employed people judge others based on their own good fortune -- be it luck or born talents or born personality strengths that have been supported by fortunate experiences to develop usefully.
Not judging anyone based upon anything that I've read or heard, but rather what I witnessed at close range. I make the comments I do because I have grown up and went to school around people who actually have the intellect to secure a job, but because of the environment they grew up in, a female's life mission was to just get on the County, or if you were male, hook up with a woman who was on the County, which is what it was called back the day.
To share a little more of my background so that you understand a little bit of why I have the view I do, I grew up in Compton California, which was then, predominately African-American. While I am not embarrassed to say, unfortunately, the mentality of a vast portion of African-Americans is to not even try to find employment, but rather accept living on welfare as a way of life. So, I would have to admit that my views are narrowed demographically to people in close proximity to the culture I have grown up in.
So, in taking back my earlier statement of being condescending, maybe I am a bit because I have witnessed first-hand able-bodied people with the ability to work, but chose not to because their of an engrained mentality of living off the system. Again, demography aside, I am not judging those who are truly and honestly unemployed.
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
7,484 posts, read 10,452,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo
Life should be so simple as to have bogeymen as simply designated as you suggest: the poor and uneducated.
This is a fun issue to ponder. It is true that the poor and uneducated have more children. But the reason we share the planet with so many is because they now survive longer and in greater numbers -- which is the result of educated development of agriculture, science, and technologies -- which are the products of the educated. Cool, huh? In other words: we create our own problems.
Again, were life so simple. The reality is that we have always "rewarded" self control and education, and wealth building almost exclusively. Keeping people barely alive through social safety nets is not a "reward" for bad behavior. It is a miserable sentence. So the "reward / punish" thing isn't working, is it?
So, would you suggest turning them loose on the streets without support? A recipe for disastrous behaviors if there ever was one.
Nope. Cut 'em off, you better kill 'em off.
You willing to do that or live in a society that does?
The educated and wealthy create a pyramidal society in which not all can, by any definition, compete ... then they must kill off those at the bottom of their heap -- or support what they have created. And, if they kill off the "dregs" then the next level up become the bottom rung -- and so forth.
Well just a minute here, where do you get the notion that it is the poor and uneducated that force children into sex slavery, trafficking, drugs, rapes, etc?! Those crimes are committed at all levels of society and education. I would suggest, in fact, that the people capable of pulling off child-porn rings and trafficking and such are more often the better educated.
But, anyway, those things, heinous as they are, are a drop in the bucket compared to damages done at higher levels of society. Add up the numbers of unfortunate victims of your list and compare to the losses from wars around the world -- every one of which wars have been created and executed by the wealthiest and smartest classes on the planet.
Look up prescription drug abuse and its victim levels and then tell me who designs, manufactures, and markets these drugs.
Who creates and incorporates poisonous additives to the food products that are marketed to condition the general population to dietary habits that result in obesity and diabetes and much heart disease?
Who grows and processes and markets tobacco products?
Who pollutes the rivers and streams and oceans with chemical waste?
Who pumps and refines and sells and supports the use of combustible fuels that choke the planet?
Who creates the financial products of debt we all have become conditioned to live by -- that we can't, in fact, live without -- and which products enslave us all to debt? Who created the recent financial meltdown that has compromised the lives of nearly everyone around the planet?
The poor and uneducated?
There isn't a single threat to the world that the poor and uneducated are responsible for. However miserable their lives may appear to you ... however you dislike their "leaching" off society ... they are the products of our society -- not the creators.
Kill 'em. Or not.
Re-read the above -- add thought -- reconsider your position. Or not.
You can start with statistics from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics: Employment Situation Summary
These figures are so easy to confirm that I will leave it to you, if you are actually interested to know ... Google ... millions of hits to browse.
Wow where do I even begin with all of this rambling. You have rambled on about so much based on not clearly understanding how I was responding to you. The poor and uneducated are real...not the same as a fictional bogyman. You have also rambled about a lot that has nothing to do with my thinking...therefore there is no need to address half of what you wrote
Instead of a long quote response the only two things that you seem to have not understood where I was coming from are:
What the heck does science and technology progressing life spans have to do with the fact that the poor and uneducated put out more babies?...just because they are living longer does not stop the birth of the thousands that are born every single day in the US.
You've got this part wrong... the people who are not bright enough to afford to take care of themselves or make something of their life before they start having babies are the ones who are creating the problems...not the scientists who have helped to cure disease and extend life expectancies
One good thing is now the less fortunate have a longer life to be productive if that is their mantra...it is not impossible to make something of your life when you are born in the ghetto with abusive non supportive uneducated parents. I was born in the ghetto in that exact situation...guess what? I figured it out all by myself because I was motivated to create a better life for myself. I busted my butt and created my path right out of that ghetto. Actually that is a great motivator for a kid….how do I get the hell out of this situation and live a good life? That was my mantra! It was not easy but I did it by myself: I did not sit on the curb whining about what a ****ed up life I was born into (well sometimes I did but I got right back up and worked harder)...I did not run to the govt for help ...nor did I develop a disdain for those more fortunate than me. I just made sure that I did not develop the same pompous attitude that some of them displayed. I worked very hard and did not create life changing burdens for myself. It was not difficult to look around at the young people and see how they made their own life much more difficult for success due to their unwise actions. Watching people when you are young is very impressionable...either you like what you see or don't. I liked seeing successful independent people making it in life. I did not like seeing kids having kids and struggling to sustain that lifestyle...there was no way I was interested in signing up for that path. Life is hard enough when you are trying to make something of your life...my motto was to keep my personal life free of distractions that would deter me from my goals. I knew any type of distraction that I wanted would still be there when I finished achieving what I set out to do...so I never rushed into situations that would further delay my progress. Yes I was self-disciplined, hard working, very motivated and wise. And no doubt I made plenty of mistakes along my journey but I never made permanent ones. And if you’re not...your just going to have to work harder and endure more.
I don't buy into the BS excuses people use to BS their way through life with. We are not a third world country...if you work hard in this country you can make it. If you burden your path with drugs or popping children into the world...well those are your self created burdens. You are going to have to work harder...but not in CA you get rewarded for it at the expense of the tax payers.
You made this point that sounded as if the poor and uneducated are harmless and it is the well-educated that have created all the evil on this planet...my response was to point out some of the issues the poor and uneducated create on society and that it is not exclusive to the well-educated. Humans are some of the worst creatures on this planet and it is not exclusive to just the rich and well educated as you suggested
BTW I am not new to the US BLS. Researching it does not answer the question that I asked.
I gather you don't have to use simple arithmatic -- or logic -- in your profession.
The reason there has been sustained unemployment is because there aren't anywhere near enough jobs to employ people. That's it. There ain't no more.
Nullgeo, sometimes I get the impression you are so focused on arguing your point that you fail to really absorb what was written. I do believe I said, "one" of the reasons, "besides lack of jobs" that the unemployment rate remains high is because of the current extension of the unemployment benefit period.
When public policy and generous unemployment benefits make it less costly for people to remain unemployed, it increases the natural rate of unemployment. In other words, if I can collect unemployment for 2 years, why would I be hard-pressed to actively look for a job?
We do agree that there is not one, lone, factor in particular that has contributed to the sustained high unemployment rate. There are many factors that determine sustained unemployment: public policy, which has extended the benefit period, and unemployment as a result of frictional, structural and cyclical conditions. Then we have those who are not in the labor force, retirees, disabled, students over the age of 16, homemakers, and unfortunately the ones who actually should not be classified with the aforementioned, the able-bodied who for one reason or another choose to not work and live off the system.
Nullgeo, sometimes I get the impression you are so focused on arguing your point that you fail to really absorb what was written. I do believe I said, "one" of the reasons, "besides lack of jobs" that the unemployment rate remains high is because of the current extension of the unemployment benefit period.
When public policy and generous unemployment benefits make it less costly for people to remain unemployed, it increases the natural rate of unemployment. In other words, if I can collect unemployment for 2 years, why would I be hard-pressed to actively look for a job?
We do agree that there is not one, lone, factor in particular that has contributed to the sustained high unemployment rate. There are many factors that determine sustained unemployment: public policy, which has extended the benefit period, and unemployment as a result of frictional, structural and cyclical conditions. Then we have those who are not in the labor force, retirees, disabled, students over the age of 16, homemakers, and unfortunately the ones who actually should not be classified with the aforementioned, the able-bodied who for one reason or another choose to not work and live off the system.
You would be hard-pressed to look for a job because unemployment is not supportive. It sucks compared to working and earning a living wage. The unemployment rate remains high because, well, there aren't many jobs available and the economy is not recovering quickly. That's it. Period. Taking away benefits doesn't create jobs. Industry creates jobs.
The average rate of unemployment in California pre-recession was 5.3% ... national rate was about 5% ... half today's California rate ... a bit more than 2/3 national rate. Only a small percentage of those were chronically unemployed. In other words: the vast majority of people out of work today are not living to scam the system.
The minority you write of are not a problem of significance. They have always existed and we have always carried the minor, irritating burden. It has now become a favorite whipping topic as if suddenly this fractional group caused our financial crisis. They haven't. The fat cats on Wall Street, in the mortgage industry, and lazy, ignorant, complicit politicians are fully responsible for the collapse of the economy -- which is why more than half of these unemployed are needing benefits ... and most of the remaining half would also be seeking and finding jobs if the economy was healthy.
The rest are insignificant statistically. And still not deserving of harsh judgment. They do not wish to be as they are. No one would. They buy into the culture because they are not blessed with the component factors required to rise above. That is not their choice. It is their sad fate.
Wow where do I even begin with all of this rambling. You have rambled on about so much based on not clearly understanding how I was responding to you. The poor and uneducated are real...not the same as a fictional bogyman. You have also rambled about a lot that has nothing to do with my thinking...therefore there is no need to address half of what you wrote
Instead of a long quote response the only two things that you seem to have not understood where I was coming from are:
What the heck does science and technology progressing life spans have to do with the fact that the poor and uneducated put out more babies?...just because they are living longer does not stop the birth of the thousands that are born every single day in the US.
You've got this part wrong... the people who are not bright enough to afford to take care of themselves or make something of their life before they start having babies are the ones who are creating the problems...not the scientists who have helped to cure disease and extend life expectancies
One good thing is now the less fortunate have a longer life to be productive if that is their mantra...it is not impossible to make something of your life when you are born in the ghetto with abusive non supportive uneducated parents. I was born in the ghetto in that exact situation...guess what? I figured it out all by myself because I was motivated to create a better life for myself. I busted my butt and created my path right out of that ghetto. Actually that is a great motivator for a kid….how do I get the hell out of this situation and live a good life? That was my mantra! It was not easy but I did it by myself: I did not sit on the curb whining about what a ****ed up life I was born into (well sometimes I did but I got right back up and worked harder)...I did not run to the govt for help ...nor did I develop a disdain for those more fortunate than me. I just made sure that I did not develop the same pompous attitude that some of them displayed. I worked very hard and did not create life changing burdens for myself. It was not difficult to look around at the young people and see how they made their own life much more difficult for success due to their unwise actions. Watching people when you are young is very impressionable...either you like what you see or don't. I liked seeing successful independent people making it in life. I did not like seeing kids having kids and struggling to sustain that lifestyle...there was no way I was interested in signing up for that path. Life is hard enough when you are trying to make something of your life...my motto was to keep my personal life free of distractions that would deter me from my goals. I knew any type of distraction that I wanted would still be there when I finished achieving what I set out to do...so I never rushed into situations that would further delay my progress. Yes I was self-disciplined, hard working, very motivated and wise. And no doubt I made plenty of mistakes along my journey but I never made permanent ones. And if you’re not...your just going to have to work harder and endure more.
I don't buy into the BS excuses people use to BS their way through life with. We are not a third world country...if you work hard in this country you can make it. If you burden your path with drugs or popping children into the world...well those are your self created burdens. You are going to have to work harder...but not in CA you get rewarded for it at the expense of the tax payers.
You made this point that sounded as if the poor and uneducated are harmless and it is the well-educated that have created all the evil on this planet...my response was to point out some of the issues the poor and uneducated create on society and that it is not exclusive to the well-educated. Humans are some of the worst creatures on this planet and it is not exclusive to just the rich and well educated as you suggested
BTW I am not new to the US BLS. Researching it does not answer the question that I asked.
Your position that the poor and uneducated are causing the nation's problems and undeserving of consideration is not pompous? It smacks of elitist arrogance.
Every one of my responses went right to the points you were trying to promote.
You complain that the poor and uneducated are making too many babies ... and I correctly pointed out that they aren't making any more babies than they always have ... birth rates haven't changed much over the years ... the reason for growing populations is lower mortality ... science is responsible for more surviving longer ... don't blame welfare for making more babies. Anyway, there are studies that conclude that welfare does not encourage women to make more babies. You like references?
Myth: Welfare gives mothers an economic incentive to have more children.
Fact: Studies have not found a correlation between size of welfare benefits and families.
Summary
"Welfare mothers actually have less of an economic incentive to have children than nonwelfare mothers. Studies have not been able to find a correlation between family size and the size of welfare benefits. Welfare families are virtually the same size as nonwelfare families; indeed, both have been declining over the decades. "
The examples I provided in the previous post of dangerously destructive human behaviors are spot on.
The unfortunate behaviors of some poor and uneducated are self-destructive -- not universally destructive ... and most these behaviors are not unique to the poor or uneducated anyway.
The larger and grossly destructive behaviors I cited as nearly unique to a class of sociopathic educated and wealthy people are universally dangerous -- that is: they deeply threaten humanity at large.
You want to righteously vilify bad guys? Look to certain sub-cultures within the wealthy and highly educated communities. They are the movers and shakers and policy makers and product creators that destructively affect the lives of hundreds of millions and billions every day. The poor just waste their own lives.
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
7,484 posts, read 10,452,629 times
Reputation: 8955
No to your first question...not at all. People that I have encountered in life...especially at the places where I go to help others...at food shelters at orphanages at blood drives. Or who I just happen to run across that I have helped along my journey on this planet would laugh you off the planet for this insult. Yep that's me a real pompous elitist
Sorry you still don’t get where I am coming from. This is pointless but for the record here is my position:
My stance is I don't believe in enabling humans. I don't believe in where you come from as an excuse for where you are in life.
I don't believe in having babies if you can't take care of that child with your own money. It is a simple choice to have sex or not. It is a very simple choice to use birth control. It is a very simple choice to not have sex if you don't believe in birth control.
I don't believe in free hand outs to able bodied people. (not talking about unemployment benefits)
You vilify people who are rich or who have worked hard to make a good life for themselves...not everyone who has money is evil. Not everyone who has worked hard to better their lives is bad and looks down on the less fortunate.
The longer we keep our heads down to the people who are destroying the economy the more we will see the divide between the rich and the poor.
You made absolutely zero valid points on what I was attempting to say.
It is sad to see such hatred in you directed towards your misunderstanding of others. Only you are the only one suffering with the hatred you have for those who have chosen to work hard and make something of their lives vs. using where they came from as the excuse for where they are if they are not sucessful.
You are not the nice guy that you self proclaimed to me. And you are no friend of mine.
No to your first question...not at all. People that I have encountered in life...especially at the places where I go to help others...at food shelters at orphanages at blood drives. Or who I just happen to run across that I have helped along my journey on this planet would laugh you off the planet for this insult.
Sorry you still don’t get where I am coming from. This is pointless but for the record here is my position:
My stance is I don't believe in enabling humans. I don't believe in where you come from as an excuse for where you are in life.
I don't believe in having babies if you can't take care of that child with your own money. It is a simple choice to have sex or not. It is a very simple choice to use birth control. It is a very simple choice to not have sex if you don't believe in birth control.
I don't believe in free hand outs to able bodied people. (not taking about unemployment benefits)
You vilify people who are rich or have made a good life for themselves...not everyone who has money is evil. Not everyone who has worked hard to better their lives is bad and looks down on the less fortunate.
The longer we keep our heads down to the people who are destroying the economy the more we will see the divide between the rich and the poor.
You made absolutely zero valid points on what I was attempting to say.
It is sad to see such hatred in you directed towards your misunderstanding of others. Only you are the only one suffering with the hatred you have for those who have chosen to work hard and make something of their lives.
You are not the nice guy you self proclaim to be. And you are no friend of mine.
You used the word "believe" repeatedly ... the definition of that word is to hold an opinion ... and the definition of opinion is: "[a] judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty".
If the decisions you cite above as "simple" were in fact simple, we wouldn't have people making errors in those regards, would we? These are not as simple as you wish to "believe".
Where everyone comes from in life has a huge impact on where they end up. You, like many people, believe (there's that pesky word again!) you / we create yourself / ourselves. You didn't create yourself anymore than those welfare babies you condemn created themselves -- nor the parents of those babies created themselves. You, they, we -- none of us are the omnipotent god of self origin. Our genetics are not of our own creation. And neither are the experiences of our environment to us.
People of your persuasion will argue that at the very least we control what we make of our genetics and experiences ... which is only vaguely true. We all make our decisions based on our genetics and propensities and preferences ... all of which developed outside of our consciously applied influence.
You say you don't believe (again!) in "enabling" people? Educating people is to enable them. You believe in that, right? Awarding a scholarship to a needy student is enabling them. Feeding a starving person is enabling them to live. Is it up to you to decide who to enable and which way is worthy and productive?
You infer that I vilify [all] rich people. Actually, I don't and never said any such thing. Feel free to go back and read carefully. I said, and I am entirely correct in saying, that the world's greatest evils are perpetrated by rich and well educated people, not by poor and uneducated people. I never said being rich in itself was evil. I never said that all rich people were evil. I said the people who do the truly destructive things in the world are nearly all well educated and wealthy. And they are.
And then you say that I have hatred for those who work hard and make something of themselves. I said no such thing, anywhere, anytime.
I'm as nice a person as you or anyone would ever care to meet. I just don't buy into sociopathic destruction, elitism, bigotry, or false vilifications -- umm, or whining either.
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
7,484 posts, read 10,452,629 times
Reputation: 8955
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo
You used the word "believe" repeatedly ... the definition of that word is to hold an opinion ... and the definition of opinion is: "[a] judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty".
If the decisions you cite above as "simple" were in fact simple, we wouldn't have people making errors in those regards, would we? These are not as simple as you wish to "believe".
Where everyone comes from in life has a huge impact on where they end up. You, like many people, believe (there's that pesky word again!) you / we create yourself / ourselves. You didn't create yourself anymore than those welfare babies you condemn created themselves -- nor the parents of those babies created themselves. You, they, we -- none of us are the omnipotent god of self origin. Our genetics are not of our own creation. And neither are the experiences of our environment to us.
People of your persuasion will argue that at the very least we control what we make of our genetics and experiences ... which is only vaguely true. We all make our decisions based on our genetics and propensities and preferences ... all of which developed outside of our consciously applied influence.
You say you don't believe (again!) in "enabling" people? Educating people is to enable them. You believe in that, right? Awarding a scholarship to a needy student is enabling them. Feeding a starving person is enabling them to live. Is it up to you to decide who to enable and which way is worthy and productive?
You infer that I vilify [all] rich people. Actually, I don't and never said any such thing. Feel free to go back and read carefully. I said, and I am entirely correct in saying, that the world's greatest evils are perpetrated by rich and well educated people, not by poor and uneducated people. I never said being rich in itself was evil. I never said that all rich people were evil. I said the people who do the truly destructive things in the world are nearly all well educated and wealthy. And they are.
And then you say that I have hatred for those who work hard and make something of themselves. I said no such thing, anywhere, anytime.
I'm as nice a person as you or anyone would ever care to meet. I just don't buy into sociopathic destruction, elitism, bigotry, or false vilifications -- umm, or whining either.
Your rants are the exact definition and example of the word sociopathic self-destruction.
You can believe all that you want to believe that you are a nice guy...your insane rants show otherwise. You are a frightening human on this planet that's in trouble.
And if it is not so simple to refrain from becoming pregnant when you can't afford to raise a child then get an abortion.
It is simple if you use your head the right way
BTW yes I did create where I ended up in life...I worked hard and created my reality and thank my lucky karma and my hard work that I made it out of the ghetto! I earned 2 science degrees...yep thats all fate as you would have us believe
Your rants are the exact definition and example of the word sociopathic self-destruction.
You can believe all that you want to believe that you are a nice guy...your insane rants show otherwise. You are a frightening human on this planet that's in trouble.
The planet that's in trouble because of people on welfare barely feeding themselves?
Or because of the snobbish, elitist, sociopathic military-industrialists and financiers who are poisoning you and all of us on a daily basis?
Please explain how anything I have written meets the definition of "sociopathic". Feel free to use your dictionary.
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
7,484 posts, read 10,452,629 times
Reputation: 8955
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo
The planet that's in trouble because of people on welfare barely feeding themselves?
Or because of the snobbish, elitist, sociopathic military-industrialists and financiers who are poisoning you and all of us on a daily basis?
Please explain how anything I have written meets the definition of "sociopathic". Feel free to use your dictionary.
You're thick as a brick and not worthy of any more of my time...good luck in life...since your fate does not seem to have worked out well for you...and I can certainly see why
Your poisoned mind will do you in...the sooner you wake up to this the better you be
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Those crimes are committed at all levels of society and education. I would suggest, in fact, that the people capable of pulling off child-porn rings and trafficking and such are more often the better educated.
I earned 2 science degrees...yep thats all fate as you would have us believe 
