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I think Luis gave a pretty good description of what "integration" means. It's a step or two removed from "assimilation" and usually kinder, gentler at that.
I'd actually say that Mennonites are a pretty good example of integration into Canadian society while maintaining some of their characteristics and not going full-out towards assimilation. Though of course some Mennonites are more fully assimilated into the Anglo-Canadian mainstream.
I think that the bar today for "integration" to Canadian society is considerably lower than it was when the ancestors of most of today's Canadian Mennonites arrived in the country.
Whether that's a good or bad thing is what we're debating right now.
I'm happy to debate that but what specifically did Luis say about what integration is? I'm lost here.
Mennonites did not need to integrate at all in 1874. The Canadian government wasn't really in the position to require anything of them. They needed farmers accustomed to working in cold climates, on dry land. Mennonites were promised what they asked for - their own German schools and exemption from military service and swearing of oaths. When the Canadian government reneged on the school promise later, round about the 1920s, thousands of Mennonites (I think 7000 but don't want to look it up) left for Paraguay and Mexico. That really hurt Manitoba. It was something the newspapers at time sneered at, saying that regardless of what the bishops say, Mennonites would never leave this wonderful country. But they did.
It will be interesting (to me) to see what happens the next time faith and government collide.
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To your last sentence - I'm a farmer. Do you know how expensive farmland is? If you aren't born into it or if you're not coming over with a couple of million dollars, you have no hope of farming.
I did not know this but makes sense. Similar to housing. That said hats off to you with respect for what you do!
I'm happy to debate that but what specifically did Luis say about what integration is? I'm lost here.
Mennonites did not need to integrate at all in 1874. The Canadian government wasn't really in the position to require anything of them. They needed farmers accustomed to working in cold climates, on dry land. Mennonites were promised what they asked for - their own German schools and exemption from military service and swearing of oaths. When the Canadian government reneged on the school promise later, round about the 1920s, thousands of Mennonites (I think 7000 but don't want to look it up) left for Paraguay and Mexico. That really hurt Manitoba. It was something the newspapers at time sneered at, saying that regardless of what the bishops say, Mennonites would never leave this wonderful country. But they did.
It will be interesting (to me) to see what happens the next time faith and government collide.
Great final point because that's one of the main upcoming flashpoints I'd say.
The Canadian-born are less and less religious but a lot of newcomers tend to be way more religious than the native-born.
Canadian policies and messaging tell them that retaining religious practices (all but the most extreme ones in fact) is a good thing and encouraged here. The host society has a duty to accommodate religious requests, and as I said only the most extreme are deemed unacceptable in Canada.
In such a hyper-accepting, pro-diversity environment, given our demographic trends, things can only go in the direction of more religion in our society and as our population changes we'll almost certainly see increased political pressure for more and more religion in our institutions and in public in general.
Unless of course the state pushes back and says: "do as you wish in your private life but in government institutions and the public things are religious neutral and secular and accommodation will be minimal".
In Canada really only Quebec does this at the moment and as a result of the prevailing Canadian mindset (which is strengthening its reverence for religious beliefs under the guise of diversity) Quebec are seen as the horrible bad guys.
In the rest of Canada the mindset is pretty much: "religion? oh by all means, please do it and we will accommodate. in fact, sorry for not thinking proactively to accommodate even before you asked. hope you will forgive us. you will forgive us, right? "
I did not know this but makes sense. Similar to housing. That said hats off to you with respect for what you do!
Thank you! In the interests of full disclosure, when my husband became sicker, I subdivided 16 acres and my house and barn off the farmland. That was just before the pandemic. Farmland here isn't at the prices in Ontario.
Consider though that farmlands in my area was valued at $500 an acre 30ish years ago and are valued technically between 5-6 thousand an acre now but in actual fact getting offers for up to $10,000 an acre. Much of that increase happened in the last 10 years.
Farmers are unlikely to make that money back in their lifetime but they are skyrocketing the prices because they want to buy close to home and consolidate their fields due to the price of fuel and for the next generation.
I sold to a neighbour for a price much higher than I had anticipated. So really, I'm no longer a farmer. I have my horses and dogs.
I am sure you want immigrants to speak French and English and I'm pretty sure you don't want to keep them out of universities. I know you object to the hijab etc. It marks people as "different." So if by "integration" you mean clothing...?
If so, I know we disagree on that. It does seem very superficial and a poor indicator of integration though.
I don't object to the hijab in all instances, but I do know what it represents and why women should be very wary of its proliferation.
But if women choose (sic) to wear it on their own time that's their choice I suppose but I don't think that our public institutions should give a de facto blessing that legitimizes it by opening their doors to it in all circumstances and jump through hoops to accommodate it everywhere.
I don't object to the hijab in all instances, but I do know what it represents and why women should be very wary of its proliferation.
But if women choose (sic) to wear it on their own time that's their choice but I don't think that our public institutions should give a de facto blessing that legitimizes it by opening their doors to it in all circumstances and jump through hoops to accommodate it everywhere.
I don't think for one minute people give up their culture when they immigrate. Neither do I think they should.
Not entirely but they most adopt ways of the new country in order to really become a part of it. That is what integration means.
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And I'm still at a loss as to what "integration" means.
Combine (one thing) with another so that they become a whole. In this case immigrants adopting the characteristics of the society they are moving to. Is that really such a bad thing? Is Canada such a bad place we have to discard its history, culture for something new?
Last edited by Luisito80; 11-01-2023 at 11:40 AM..
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