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Hey pnuema. The only war i am involded in is against the way i think,against the thoughts that are not His thoughts.(I'm not sure if universalists believe this)
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ 2 Cor 10:5.We can not take captive another man's thoughts and make them obedient.
Be transformed by the renewing of the mind , how is this possible ?, by thinking how God thinks.
Camps we are not to just take our thoughts and put them in submission to Christ, we are to take every thought and to the submission of Christ.
Example: A preacher stand in the pulpit and tells you this is what God says. Do you believe that preacher just because he tells you that God says it, or do you take that preachers thoughts captive and put them in submission to Christ?
You at one time believed in ET correct? Was this your thought or was it the thoughts of those who taught you it?
Brother Satan sows tares in us, where do you suppose he sows them?
Yes that's true, Satan thinks we're stupid and less than deserving of recognition.......we are, after all, made from dirt. But that's no reason to bow down to him or think that he has something on us when we don't live up to God's expectations. For many years I thought I wasn't deserving of God's love because I was told so by a demon-possessed father.....he's still possessed imo. But, ignorance of the devil does not mean one is serving him. There are some mighty fine people who are not believers, but that doesn't make them devil worshipers either.
God does NOT send a delusion to keep people "duped" as you put it, God and Jesus are constantly at work trying to reach people's hearts and souls through others and through circumstances. I don't believe for one second that God would "dupe" people into not being able to believe. Either you do, or you don't and it is totally and completely up to God as to whether or not he allows someone to believe. That is completely biblical and you know it.
Satan may be laughing but he knows his time is short and he also is aware of his fate. I'm just saying that because God created him and allows him to continue that maybe, just maybe, there is way more to the God vs. Satan story than we will ever be able to comprehend. I think it is way too convenient to believe that Satan's fate is an eternal fiery hell, I believe that he will also be reconciled, whether it takes a thousand years or ten thousand, time is not of any consequence where we are going. What matters is the heart, and God can see the heart. Satan will quite possibly be serving God in the end.
To think Satan will be reconciled and serving God in the end pretty much sums up my point.
And about God sending a delusion .... well I believe what I read.
NIV1984 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Right! God created Satan to perform certain duties, and he has no other recourse than to perform them. After all, Satan is not God. He is a created being just like the rest of us, well.....ok, maybe not like US but he was created and he has a purpose. So.....maybe it does boil down to the free will part. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that?
I was just referring to how you say that Satan was the prince of the powers of the air and thus had been given free reign ... That is the only part that i disagree with what you have said.
I mean all power comes from God, and just because God gives power to someone over others does not mean that they are free to do whatever they will without being influenced by the sovereign will of God, like in the case of Pharaoh who wanted to free Israel long before God actually allowed him to do so, yet God hardened his heart and caused him to reject his initial inclination to free the people.
Personally, like some others here(some of whom i agree with much on, and others here with whom i disagree most of the time) i would have to say that i believe the doctrine of free will itself is ultimately luciferian ... I see the doctrine and philosophy of free moral agency as ultimately satanic; that is to say if what i read in the scriptures concerning these things is to be understood as correct.
I believe that free will and or free moral agency are false doctrines designed to bring some people under condemnation, while at the same time for the purpose of puffing up the pride of others. These doctrines ultimately teach that it is left up to the creation to save itself from the vanity of death by knowledge and wisdom and skills in decision making ... They teach that Christ did not save us, but that he provided us the ability to save ourselves.
I am not saying that humans do not have wills of their own, nor that they have no moral agency ... I'm simply saying that those things are not "free" ... they are always subject to the will and moral agency of God. And God hardens whom he will, and has mercy on whom he will. So Satan is a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction, as are all the children of the devil ... They are all about destruction and wrath, they spread fear and condemnation throughout the world - threats of endless spiritual violence ... etc. ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-26-2011 at 02:33 PM..
Why do people still believe Satan is some evil entity bent on getting back at God for kicking him out of Heaven?
Do you all not realize you're following Persian mythology? The dualistic Satan concept came from the Persians who influenced Judaism following the Babylonian exile. The modern day view was largely embellished from the fictional works of Dante and John Milton.
There is no evil Satan in the entire 1st half of the Bible, and the verses in the New Testament that people claim support an evil Satan are easily misinterpreted.
This is the problem with Biblical literalism. Nobody bothers to research the origins of Biblical concepts and theology, because they may find something they don't like that weakens their sand foundation faith.
Just a quick question. Did Adam and Eve actually look at the tree of knowledge of good and evil before they heard "Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?�, if they did, was it only after the serpent said this that the tree became desirable ?.>>>pcamps
To get from one point to another, the best and straightest route is a straight line.
Now, for summary of what I call God's direct points:
Point "A" God created Adam.
Point "B", God gave Adam the ability to reason.
Point "C" Adam becomes a god (Knowing good and evil)
Point "D" Separation by reason of becoming a god, independent entity, thus subject to:
Point "E" Judgment due because there can be but only one God, thus all others must die.
Point "F" Death by reason of the judgment due to the fall. (Becoming gods)
Take those 6 points directly and you will arrive aT God's next move.
And that is to save that which became lost in the creative process.
Satan is used in the story as an agent of God to explain in simple terms the fall of Adam.
When the fall really means is when a person comes to the age of accountability, that persons innocence evaporates and self, I, takes over as a god.
Being place in a world that caters to the fleshly lusts, we are handicapped.
But all hope is not lost because by the same creator who subjected us to this world will also subject us to all eternity. (Save us)
Good and evil we all have the potential to practice.
The question is, by reason of knowledge of the tree of life (Jesus) will we choose to allow God to rule in our lives or will we allow self to rule.
Satan is everything that we don't allow God to rule.
Jesus took the power of God's agent (The adversary) away, meaning that the adversary (This world)can be overcome by us, willingly if we choose.
But should we not, they we have to deal with the consequences at our own expense.
But your soul, for whatever it may be, good or evil, is made perfect in the consummation of God's love directly demonstrated by the offering of His Son to take our place in hell.
After that, Jesus' Kingdom begun, born in the pit of hell, for their God forgave Him completely as the following verse points out about Jesus: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
That is also why Jesus stated: Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
You see, Jesus took all our sins from us and forgave us, thus the Father also forgave Him.
That is stright and to the point from "A" to "F".
All else in between is life's stories and life's experiences as mankind goes through the process of life, ever learning, maturing to the point one day, where we shall understand God's love completely.
I was just referring to how you say that Satan was the prince of the powers of the air and thus had been given free reign ... That is the only part that i disagree with what you have said.
Oh ok, I wasn't sure what you were actually disagreeing with.
Quote:
I mean all power comes from God, and just because God gives power to someone over others does not mean that they are free to do whatever they will without being influenced by the sovereign will of God, like in the case of Pharaoh who wanted to free Israel long before God actually allowed him to do so, yet God hardened his heart and caused him to reject his initial inclination to free the people.
I don't disagree with this.
Quote:
Personally, like some others here(some of whom i agree with much on, and others here with whom i disagree most of the time) i would have to say that i believe the doctrine of free will itself is ultimately luciferian ... I see the doctrine and philosophy of free moral agency as ultimately satanic; that is to say if what i read in the scriptures concerning these things is to be understood as correct.
I don't believe in free will either, but I don't believe that the doctrine of free will is satanic, just that those who believe it are misguided and ignorant. But now that you say that, it gives me pause to think about whether or not the actual teaching of such is "luciferian" as you put it. I guess I never thought of it that way. What is it in scriptures that makes you believe that?
Quote:
I believe that free will and or free moral agency are false doctrines designed to bring some people under condemnation, while at the same time for the purpose of puffing up the pride of others. These doctrines ultimately teach that it is left up to the creation to save itself from the vanity of death by knowledge and wisdom and skills in decision making ... They teach that Christ did not save us, but that he provided us the ability to save ourselves.
Agreed.
Quote:
I am not saying that humans do not have wills of their own, nor that they have no moral agency ... I'm simply saying that those things are not "free" ... they are always subject to the will and moral agency of God. And God hardens whom he will, and has mercy on whom he will. So Satan is a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction, as are all the children of the devil ... They are all about destruction and wrath, they spread fear and condemnation throughout the world - threats of endless spiritual violence ... etc. ..
I agree with this also, I guess where we disagree is simply the "free reign" part about Satan. While I agree that we as human beings DO NOT have "free" will, I think Satan does to an extent. Yes God still has control over everything, but Satan is a spiritual being and can't be categorized the same as us.
I don't believe Satan is "serving" God, as someone suggested, or else he would not be evil. So if he's not serving God, what is he doing? His own thing, which means God has given him a certain amount of free reign for the moment. I just think that our inability to have free will has no bearing on Satan, he's not human and the same rules don't apply. Whatever power Satan has has been given to him by God, that much we can agree on I think.
I don't believe in free will either, but I don't believe that the doctrine of free will is satanic, just that those who believe it are misguided and ignorant. But now that you say that, it gives me pause to think about whether or not the actual teaching of such is "luciferian" as you put it. I guess I never thought of it that way. What is it in scriptures that makes you believe that?
Allow me to clarify ... I don't mean that everyone who believes in free will is a satanist ... At least they may not realize that what they are doing is placing the "free will" of the creation over the "sovereign will" of the creator.
That doctrine teaches that God prefers the "free will" of man to his own "sovereign will", and in effect it also teaches that God works out all things according to the counsel of the "free will of men", and not according to the counsel of his own "sovereign will". It literally teaches that the creation is at the wheel and in control of its own fate and puts God in the back seat and ultimately out of the equation. Its all about what we do and what we choose and how we believe and God no longer is the savior of all people, but he only provides free willed humans the opportunity to save themselves.
The false doctrine of free will is ultimately rooted in the worship of self ... And the worship of the creature above the creator ...
Quote:
I agree with this also, I guess where we disagree is simply the "free reign" part about Satan. While I agree that we as human beings DO NOT have "free" will, I think Satan does to an extent. Yes God still has control over everything, but Satan is a spiritual being and can't be categorized the same as us.
Satan is a spiritual being, and yet Satan is a created being ... He is still a part of the creation which was made subject to vanity and not of its own will ... Remember that. In every case the evil spirits are subject to the word of God, Christ our lord. Even Christs temptation in the wilderness is an example of this.
Quote:
I don't believe Satan is "serving" God, as someone suggested, or else he would not be evil. So if he's not serving God, what is he doing? His own thing, which means God has given him a certain amount of free reign for the moment. I just think that our inability to have free will has no bearing on Satan, he's not human and the same rules don't apply. Whatever power Satan has has been given to him by God, that much we can agree on I think.
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."
...
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
...
"I have known, and am persuaded, in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself, except to him who is reckoning anything to be unclean -- to that one it is unclean"
...
"In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them."
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-27-2011 at 04:26 PM..
You know that's something I've always wondered about.....why does Satan, knowing full well God's plan for him in the end, continue to wreak havoc and evil? Does he know something that we don't? Any thoughts?
Ever been to a 'death row' facility?
Those inmates know their fate too, and is why they're extra dangerous...and have less to loose by being cruel...
You know that's something I've always wondered about.....why does Satan, knowing full well God's plan for him in the end, continue to wreak havoc and evil? Does he know something that we don't? Any thoughts?
All right...Where in the Scriptures does it state that the Satan knows his own end?...
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