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Hi everyone!
Well, I'm starting a thread here, to share with everyone how Paul seems to have been preaching the Gospel in his era.
Now, before I start, I must say, that I am not part of any denomination. Therefore, I am not endorsing any church group or creed, I am only sharing what I am reading in the Bible.
Now,
Paul tells the reader in Romans 3, that people were accusing him of saying that the message of Christianity was basically saying, "sin as much as you want, it will only bring more glory to God!"
Now this is similar to what fundamentalist/traditional Christianity tells Universalists, and that is, "if everyone is going to be saved in the end, then why not sin??"
Of course, a question like this should never come from a Christian, one who has tasted of the heavenly gift!
But perhaps from a non-believer, this type of thinking might come up..
Now some people believe that Christ Jesus gives people the "chance" to be saved.
Other people believe that Christ will "eventually" save all people.
Still other people will tell you, that Paul's message to the world is nothing less than this: that Christ has saved everyone, period.
Romans 5 tells us some amazing things about the Power of Christ, and what exactly happened on Calvary.
The traditional Church has no problem telling people that they are sinners. This, they say, is a result of Adam's sin.
But what they cannot accept, is the "reverse" idea, [you're darn right I cannot accept the "reverse" of what God says brian...Satan does everything in "reverse" of what God says!] and that is, that people are SAINTS, and this is because of what Christ (Adam 2) did.
Read Romans 5 again.
So here is that famous retort again, "well, then, why don't we just continue in sin?"
Paul had heard that question many times, and gives his answer in Romans 6! -If we have all died with Him (and all have indeed died), we shall all live with Him!
Be reconciled to God! He's already your Life, why not enjoy it??
Blessings,
brian
BLACK Bolded part above...NOT ALL will crucify their fleshly desires!...NOT ALL will take up their cross and follow Jesus and walked the way He walked...in obedience to God's commandments...nor with all suffer the lusts of their flesh by forsaking their sinful nature and living a holy, righteous life before they die...news flash...neither will all live with Him.
RED Bolded part above...("...and all have indeed died...)...and another news flash brian...these are YOUR! words, not God's. That's your little UR spin on the Word of God...you shouldn't add or take anything away from His Word...that's not going to fare well for you on His Day of your judgement.
Other RED Bolded part above...(...the "reverse" idea...)...!!!???!!! Hell no! I will not accept the reverse of what God says! That's purely satanic!
...and another news flash brian...not all are the saints of God.
Lets all read Romans 6 together...only this time, all of it, in context...slowly now...
1 What shall we say then? Shall we [the "we" are the obedient believers that Paul is talking to!] continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us [the "us" are the ones who do not live in their sin any longer!] as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.<<<[did you get that...? he that is dead in Chtist is FREE FROM SIN!...as in they do not willfully sin any longer!]
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, <<<[not everyone is alive from the dead...only THOSE! who are!] and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were [as in...USED TO BE] the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you [which would be to be obedient to the commandment of God and walking in His will]
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then [before you came to Christ] in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
...shines a whole new "Light" upon the situation now doesn't it. Yes. It certainly does.
In Christ's love..and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Out of context verses does not make your point true.
You basicaly said man saves himself, highway said Jesus saves.
No. Jesus does the saving of a soul. Saved from what? Sin
What wrecked the whole world? Sin
Why did Jesus have to be crucified? Sin
Jesus' grace saves people from what? Sin
Therefore, if these saved people willfully sin afterward, then those nails are driven deeper into Jesus' hands as He is crucified afresh. You don't think so? Well, God stripped Adam and Eve of their paradise, cursed the ground and drove them out of His holy garden of Eden; that's what willful sin will do. And, if willful sinners die in their sins, they will burn in hell for ever. Instead of Jesus bearing the punishment for their sins, they will bear it for themselves.
God is serious. The question is, are people serious with God?
Out of context verses does not make your point true.
You basicaly said man saves himself, highway said Jesus saves.
Lol @ "out of context." My point [that u obviously diddnt notice] is the Biblical fact that unless we obey and submit God and His way, we will be lost. (Study 'free will') However we can't just be saved based on our works alone; it is obeying His plan for salvation = how to "save yourself from this untword generation" & "work out your own salvation through fear and trembeling" by obeying the gospel, the 'good news' of man's reconcilliation to God and access to eternal life that was made posibble by the death, burrial and ressurection of Jesus.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
59 James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
59 James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. <-- Don't deceive yourself: you will forfeit eternal life if you refuse to DO the Word.
Was that more clear?ok, moving on to grade 2 ;-) : Jesus wouldn't have ordaind and sent the apostles (who further commanded in 2Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.) to preach and teach the gospel if there is nothing that needed to be acted upon and obeyed. Jesus Himself said this : Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
What did the apostles preach? Repentance, baptism in Jesus Name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost, evidant by speaking in tongues as the Sprit gives the utterance. Every apostle. Every time. Repentance, the killing of the old man parallels Jesus death. Baptism by emersion in Jesus name "burried with Him in baptism" parallels his burrial. "That we might rise to walk in newness of life" if and when you receive the infilling of the spirit parallels his ressurection. Just for starters. Lots more confirming this.
Last edited by ~HolyNinja~; 09-25-2010 at 03:13 PM..
Lol @ "out of context." My point [that u obviously diddnt notice] is the Biblical fact that unless we obey and submit God and His way, we will be lost. (Study 'free will') However we can't just be saved based on our works alone; it is obeying His plan for salvation = how to "save yourself from this untword generation" & "work out your own salvation through fear and trembeling" by obeying the gospel, the 'good news' of man's reconcilliation to God and access to eternal life that was made posibble by the death, burrial and ressurection of Jesus.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
59 James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
59 James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. <-- Don't deceive yourself: you will forfeit eternal life if you refuse to DO the Word.
Was that more clear?ok, moving on to grade 2 ;-) : Jesus wouldn't have ordaind and sent the apostles (who further commanded in 2Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.) to preach and teach the gospel if there is nothing that needed to be acted upon and obeyed. Jesus Himself said this : Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
What did the apostles preach? Repentance, baptism in Jesus Name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost, evidant by speaking in tongues as the Sprit gives the utterance. Every apostle. Every time. Repentance, the killing of the old man parallels Jesus death. Baptism by emersion in Jesus name "burried with Him in baptism" parallels his burrial. "That we might rise to walk in newness of life" if and when you receive the infilling of the spirit parallels his ressurection. Just for starters. Lots more confirming this.
Again, the biggest problem in Christiany, taking a few words out of a complete thought and building a theology around it.
Jesus saves, not works. Sorry. I know it feels great and feeds a persons human side to think that they have somehow reached perfection on their own and the rest of us are just not as good and holy as they are.
No. Jesus does the saving of a soul. Saved from what? Sin
What wrecked the whole world? Sin
Why did Jesus have to be crucified? Sin
Jesus' grace saves people from what? Sin
Therefore, if these saved people willfully sin afterward, then those nails are driven deeper into Jesus' hands as He is crucified afresh. You don't think so? Well, God stripped Adam and Eve of their paradise, cursed the ground and drove them out of His holy garden of Eden; that's what willful sin will do. And, if willful sinners die in their sins, they will burn in hell for ever. Instead of Jesus bearing the punishment for their sins, they will bear it for themselves.
God is serious. The question is, are people serious with God?
I love the willful sin bit, it helps the perfect crowd to be able to justify a lot of bad behavior.
What did the apostles preach? Repentance, baptism in Jesus Name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost, evidant by speaking in tongues as the Sprit gives the utterance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~HolyNinja~
Every apostle. Every time. Repentance, the killing of the old man parallels Jesus death. Baptism by emersion in Jesus name "burried with Him in baptism" parallels his burrial. "That we might rise to walk in newness of life"
Again, the biggest problem in Christiany, taking a few words out of a complete thought and building a theology around it.
Jesus saves, not works. Sorry. I know it feels great and feeds a persons human side to think that they have somehow reached perfection on their own and the rest of us are just not as good and holy as they are.
I did not claim to reach perfection on my own. I have no confidence in my flesh. Im not glorifiying my self and obediance, Im glorifying God for extending His salvation to me. Do not twist my words, though thats all you CAN do seeing you have nothing else to stand on but your own willing ignorance.Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Funny how you REFUSE to address these sctiptures, you just continue to restate your opinion. Keep your opinion...I will cling to the words and DIRECTIONS found in GODS WORD. "But as for me and my house we will SERVE the Lord."
Last question:Let's say I was drowning and a rescue chopper came to save me. The man shouts "GRAB THE ROPE!!!" and I refuse to obey it; IIIIIIIIIIIII just insured my own destruction. If we choose to heed the words of the man (preacher) and grab the rope, our submission and obediance allowed the saving formula (the chopper, assistant and rope) to save me. I already acknowledged the fact that I was drowning and need SALVATION because I COULD NOT MAKE IT on MY OWN. {i can not make it any more simple than that}
1Ti 6:12 KJV - [12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
One of the problems with your kind is this: YOU DO NOT WANT TO SUBMIT AND OBEY GOD or a MAN SENT FROM GOD. You dont HAVE to grab the rope of salvation if you dont want to.
Moderator cut: rude.Jesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Act 2:38-39, 41-42 KJV - [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ... [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Please quit refusing to answer that call, refusing to heed instruction and refusing to believe that "faith without works IS dead." Try gladly receiving His Word.
If what I have said is wrong, then so is Jesus, Peter, Paul and everyone that has obeyed their words.
I dare you to disect each line that I have written and attempt to prove that I am wrong SCRIPTURALLY.Leave your opinion OUT, if you are able to, and stay within the safety of God's Word....ALLLLLLL OF IT.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 09-25-2010 at 11:27 PM..
I did not claim to reach perfection on my own. I have no confidence in my flesh. Im not glorifiying my self and obediance, Im glorifying God for extending His salvation to me. Do not twist my words, though thats all you CAN do seeing you have nothing else to stand on but your own willing ignorance.Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
]Funny how you REFUSE to address these sctiptures, you just continue to restate your opinion. Keep your opinion...I will cling to the words and DIRECTIONS found in GODS WORD. "But as for me and my house we will SERVE the Lord."
Last question:Let's say I was drowning and a rescue chopper came to save me. The man shouts "GRAB THE ROPE!!!" and I refuse to obey it; IIIIIIIIIIIII just insured my own destruction. If we choose to heed the words of the man (preacher) and grab the rope, our submission and obediance allowed the saving formula (the chopper, assistant and rope) to save me. I already acknowledged the fact that I was drowning and need SALVATION because I COULD NOT MAKE IT on MY OWN. {i can not make it any more simple than that}
1Ti 6:12 KJV - [12] Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
One of the problems with your kind is this: YOU DO NOT WANT TO SUBMIT AND OBEY GOD or a MAN SENT FROM GOD. You dont HAVE to grab the rope of salvation if you dont want to.
Moderator cut: editedJesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Act 2:38-39, 41-42 KJV - [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ... [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Please quit refusing to answer that call, refusing to heed instruction and refusing to believe that "faith without works IS dead." Try gladly receiving His Word.
If what I have said is wrong, then so is Jesus, Peter, Paul and everyone that has obeyed their words.
I dare you to disect each line that I have written and attempt to prove that I am wrong SCRIPTURALLY.Leave your opinion OUT, if you are able to, and stay within the safety of God's Word....ALLLLLLL OF IT.
You may not have read my "curse of the verse" post but I don't play the game of taking a verse or two out of context in order to make my point, I take the gospel message in totality, and that message is Jesus saves, not man.
Iron posted this and it says it all.
Galatians 2:11-21
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
I understand the legalists argument, I was raised with it in school. Some people look at works as following a list and focusing every waking second on sin and what not to do. Others look at works or the fruit of works as not even thinking about or focusing on a list or sin. We focus on what Jesus did for us on the cross and how since we were chosen by him we have faith in what he has done. This produces the fruit which is love, not lock-step adherence to the 613 laws of God.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 09-25-2010 at 11:29 PM..
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Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
...I will cling to the words and DIRECTIONS found in GODS WORD. "But as for me and my house we will SERVE the Lord."
