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Hi Robert,
for simplicity's sake I'm posting w/out quoting.
Romans 5 is telling us what God is doing with mankind. "Many" were put in condemnation. Is anyone free from that? No, all were put in Adam 1. "Many" means all. Many in Adam, many in Christ. It has absolutely nothing to do with free will.
I don't deny a limited type of free will. But our free will is subject to His divine will. If He takes one person (like Saul) and leaves another, that is His decision. Saul's motives are irrelevant, he declared himself the chief of sinners. That trumps Hitler and everyone else.
When God reveals Himself to us, we spontaneously worship Him and call Him Lord. It's not "forcing," it's His glorious Presence that is so wonderful. Something akin to someone seeing the grand canyon for the first time. The canyon doesn't force you to be in awe, it is what it is, and we are amazed.
God is merciful, and He is just. Mercy rejoiceth against judgment. It is God and His goodness revealed directly to the individual's heart that saves, not Preacher Bill's Sermon on Hellfire.
Please read Eph 1:11 and Colossians 1:16-20. It's God who is doing it all, and for all. This is a higher revelation than what Jesus said during His flesh ministry.
Let's start at the beginning....... My very first post in this thread.... replying to Brian about a statement he made in his post about Fundamentalist..... !!
Statement from Brian post....
Quote:
Fundamentalists are very slick.They will tell you that you must seek God with all your heart. But if you talk about listening to the Voice of God in your heart, they will tell you that the heart is "exceedingly wicked." VERY slick,
My reply......
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveLadybugs!
I would like to step in on the behalf of the Fundamentalist......
No, God said, "You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
And also it is God who has said, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
What you are posting is not the truth of the Fundamentalist..... !! They're speaking and sharing the very word of God (as shown above) and what He says about when one seeks Him with all their heart and that the heart is deceitful and beyond cure !!
There is nothing deceiving or slick about that...... are you not being deceptive in your post against the Fundamentalist by making that statement ???
Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27)
Jesus speaks to us through His word, scripture and if anything enters the mind or heart other then His word trying to lead one astray they will know it is deception. That is how we know if it is the heart of flesh or the voice of God, His Holy Spirit will always bring God's word to our hearts to discern truth from error and it will definitely be in line with His word !!! Because the heart will deceive one, there is enough proof here in this forum with false teaching and teachers.
This is why it is so important too... Hide the word of God in our hearts....... !!!
Love this scripture....
Psalm 119:10-18 10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments! 11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You. 12 Blessed are You, O LORD!
Teach me Your statutes. 13 With my lips I have declared
All the judgments of Your mouth. 14 I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
As much as in all riches. 15 I will meditate on Your precepts,
And contemplate Your ways. 16 I will delight myself in Your statutes;
I will not forget Your word.
Amen......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Rom 3:10-18
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
The truth is, the only people who seek after God are those who have already been quickened by the spirit of God. It is God who works within us both to will and do his good pleasure.
^^^^ Your post replying to the OP of mine..... The scripture you posted I don't complete understand why you did.....
The mirror represented........ that if one is going to accuse other's they need to look at themselves also !!
I have never debated that God is not the first to reach out to us..... Yet, I do believe there is a part that we acknowledge His drawing to us..... and in my OP I believe my words were, God says/said along with the Scripture..... how is that denying that God is not the first ?
Yet, you continue with your agenda and ignoring what is really being said...... My OP was the rebuttal that the Fundamentalist are slick is not true.....
Then your reply was.......... after posting the mirror !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
LoveLadyBugs,
I admit willingly that I am not righteous, and that i am a sinner(though it is no longer i that sin but sin that is in me) and did not seek God. I am honest about my sin and the fact that it was God who Chose me and worked in me to will and do his good pleasure.
I look in that mirror every day, and i am always conscious of my weakness and of the fact that i in no way shape form or fashion deserve the grace of God or his free gift of salvation.
Do you look in that mirror?
Good for you..... What does your sinning have to do with my OP.....
Now for your one and only question directed at my post.... "Do you look in that mirror?".... to which I answered in the post below !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveLadybugs!;16417283[B
][/b]Yes, I sure do look in the mirror and since I have repented of my sin, Christ who has forgiven me and has entered into my heart and life, I see/hear what He sees and then what He says to me......
Ps.139:13-14 13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will praise You,for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well.
John 16:27 For the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to themHe gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him
Psalm 128:1 Blessed is every one who fears the LORD,Who walks in His ways.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Song of Solomon 2:4
He brought me to the banqueting house,And his banner over me was love.
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, thenyou shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine.
Psalm 119:2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,Who seek Him with the whole heart!
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Psalm 37:28
For the LORD loves justice,And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
Deut.33:3 Yes, He loves the people; All His saints are in Your hand; They sit down at Your feet; Everyone receives Your words.
I Peter 5:7
casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
Philippians 2:15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Psalm 68:19 Blessed be the Lord,Who daily loads us with benefits,The God of our salvation! Selah
Need I too go on........ there are so many scripture that Jesus blesses me with every time I look into that mirror !!!
Oh, yeah, another thing.....
God also says that if anyone touches me, touches the apple of His eye !! That says to me, that I am very special to Him...... Zec.2:8 for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye.
And now your reply to the above post.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Now, i am curious what you intended to say by bolding and underlining the last half of the passage of scripture i quoted ...
And then by posting the image of a mirror ...
What hare you trying to say?
Do you care to come out and say it directly with words?
You do realize that Paul wrote those words in reference to every human being(beside Christ) who will ever live, including you, don't you?
Are you trying to say that You never sin anymore now that you have repented of your sin?
Do you deny that No one seeks after God as the scripture i posted plainly states? I noticed you did not respond to that ... Care to?
What were you implying by posting this Scripture ?
Rom 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Yup, never have denied that God seeks us first..... if you will read my first post once again, slowly, you will see I never said what you are implying which is... that we seek God first !!!
****************************** "Are you trying to say that You never sin anymore now that you have repented of your sin?"
Why do you keep asking people that question... regardless if it has anything to do with the topic at hand or not. Those are your thoughts, heart, you are questioning and implying toward other's......
It truly has nothing to do with the topic and my OP....you seem to have thrown that in for some reason. What's your motive ???
But, with all honesty and not meant to be saracastic..... it truly is none of your business. That is why it is called a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. What goes on in my life is between Him and I, not you, the world and I !!!
**************************
" Do you deny that No one seeks after God as the scripture i posted plainly states?"
No, denial here that before one is born again, no one seeks after God.....
**************************
"I noticed you did not respond to that ... Care to ?"
Why does one need to respond to everything that YOU post, lol ??? You made your statement with the scripture, move on !!! You bumped you way into the conversation with your scripture, which actually makes no sense...... to the orginal conversation!! Other then maybe trying to provoke something ?
Like I said, the rebuttal was calling the Fundamentalist slick which is not true. It was Brian's accusations of them being deceitful !!
The teaching of Universalism continually say that God initiates everything about the individuals relationship with Him, rightly so.... this teaching is constantly boasting about how powerful God is...... rightly so !!
My question is, why continue to sin?
And mock those who want God's grace, His love to keep them from sin......
If God chose you and works in you to will and do His good pleasure...... then why does universalism deny His work, especially of delivering us from sin, sanctifying one NOW ?
The scripture specifically teach us it is God's will for us to cease from our sin.... For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.(Rom.6:14), amen.......also we are not to give our selves over to unrighteousness and use our minds, bodies for sins purpose. We are to go From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. (John 8:38).
Romans 6:1-2
[ Dead to Sin, Alive to God ] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:6-7
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Romans 6:10-18
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
16. Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17. But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Jesus also said on many of occasions to different people.... "Go and Sin no more." John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
John 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
Also David of many individuals witness the power of God and said....... Psalm 19:13
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression.
So if Christ is in you then you are dead to sin and He gives you the power to rise and live above your sin..... universalism ignores Him and are not depending, trusting, believing that the Holy Spirit who has sealed us for that day of redemption and whom is suppose to be in you, which the scripture says, He that is in you is greater then he that is in the world.......
Why keep acting upon the flesh and life making the statement that He is not greater and more powerful then ones sin ???
Just like the scripture says, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. (Matt.15:8)
Also in.....Ezek.33:3 "They come to you as people come, and sit before you as My people and hear your words, but they do not do them, for they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain.
Universalism keeps boasting how God is all powerful and He is working His will in their lives and yet when it comes to ceasing, repenting from sin they say things like.....
~ I'm just human,
~ I'm a sinner can't help it,
~ or it is no longer i that sin but sin that is in me,
...... all that is, is making excuses too deny His power now and continue in the lust of the flesh (sin) which is actually saying God is not powerful enough to keep one from sinning.
Everytime one acts upon some sin, that one is denying God's truth about His power ???? I don't get it...
Universalism mocks everyone who trustes God for their sin to deliver them and keep them from the power of the flesh and sins grip. It doesn't make sense !!
I mean that is the whole concept of Christ coming to this world is to deliver us from our sin, the power of darkness and give us His light, life and deliver us into the promises of God's hope and glory through Him, Jesus Christ, who is our Atonement for our sin now which will lead us toward our inheritance, eternal life !!!
I don't think any one who believes in UR denies that He(God) is in the process of conforming us to His image , where do you get this nonsense that they are saying God does not want us delivered from sin ?
.
Just a quick point about sin too , it's what comes out of the heart of a man that defiles him , if you think it's anything to do with quiting smoking,drinking and all the other crap that the system condemns you for, then you are way off the mark.
Even if i was totally delivered from sin , i would not know about it and i certainly would not be thinking that i am ,it's called looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, and not looking to ourselves, because what is born of the flesh is flesh no matter how nice it may look because it doesn't do this that or the other.
Jesus did not say on many occasions go sin no more , in the gospels He said it twice . Please tell me how the woman caught in adultery and the fella Jesus said " sin no more" were going to be able to actually sin no more ? ,especially when the Romans 6 scriptures clearly tell us it's through being crucified with Christ that we have victory over sin , so how possibly could they have victory over sin before Jesus was crucified.
The rest of your post is a bunch of false allegations that those of us who believe in UR , have never said anything of the sort . You need to repent !!!!!!! for all the false allegations you have made in your posts.
We are all a work in progress and we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works , so if you have quit sinning , which i am 100% certain you haven't after reading your false allegations then fair play to you.
Universalism keeps boasting how God is all powerful and He is working His will in their lives and yet when it comes to ceasing, repenting from sin they say things like.....
~ I'm just human,
~ I'm a sinner can't help it,
~ or it is no longer i that sin but sin that is in me,
...... all that is, is making excuses too deny His power now and continue in the lust of the flesh (sin) which is actually saying God is not powerful enough to keep one from sinning.
Everytime one acts upon some sin, that one is denying God's truth about His power ???? I don't get it...
Universalism mocks everyone who trustes God for their sin to deliver them and keep them from the power of the flesh and sins grip. It doesn't make sense !!
I mean that is the whole concept of Christ coming to this world is to deliver us from our sin, the power of darkness and give us His light, life and deliver us into the promises of God's hope and glory through Him, Jesus Christ, who is our Atonement for our sin now which will lead us toward our inheritance, eternal life !!!
FYI, it is not just UR's who beleive that, many of us believe that it is all about Jesus and not about what we do. Our fruit is love, not a checklist.
Yup, never have denied that God seeks us first..... if you will read my first post once again, slowly, you will see I never said what you are implying which is... that we seek God first !!!
" Do you deny that No one seeks after God as the scripture i posted plainly states?"
No, denial here that before one is born again, no one seeks after God.....
Why does one need to respond to everything that YOU post, lol ??? You made your statement with the scripture, move on !!! You bumped you way into the conversation with your scripture, which actually makes no sense...... to the orginal conversation!! Other then maybe trying to provoke something ?
What you said above is the response i was trying to provoke by posting the passage of scripture that i posted.
Quote:
before one is born again, no one seeks after God
Now, the point is that many fundamentalists say that the reason why unbelievers are never saved is because they never seek after God, and then they say that the reason why they were saved was because they sought after God with all their hearts.
Its the blame Game ...
But as you rightly answered above, we must be born again before we can ever seek after God, so unbelievers cannot be blamed for not seeking after God because God has not yet worked in their lives and quickened them by the spirit so that they will seek after God and repent and have faith and believe.
Quote:
Like I said, the rebuttal was calling the Fundamentalist slick which is not true. It was Brian's accusations of them being deceitful !!
When the fundamentalist quotes Jeremiah 29:13, and use that scripture to play the blame game against unbelievers, they are usually saying that they soght God and that is why they were born again and saved. And in converse they are also saying that the reason why unbelievers are not born again and saved is because they have not sought God with all their hearts.
They get the cart before the horse and then proceed to blame others for their unbelief when the scriptures are clear that it is God that must first seek us and quicken us by his spirit before we can and will ever seek him and believe.
Another thing that is disingenuous about what many fundies claim is when they quote Jeremiah 17:9 as a response to the argument from Christian Universalists that after we are born again, we must listen to our hearts in order to come to a knowledge of the truth about God and his word.
The Christian Universalist is applying to the new heart of those that are born again, asking, does ET or annihilation line up with what you feel in your heart about God and his truth?
Fundmantalists have to say that the idea of Eternal Torment does not line up with their hearts because they know they are supposed to love their enemies, but then they use Jeremiah 17:9 to imply that we cant listen to our hearts because it will deceive us, instead we must simply accept what we have been taught to believe without question even if our hearts do not really agree ...
The fact is, as has been concluded by even yourself in your words above, if anyone is never saved it is not their fault, it is only because God chose not to quicken them in the spirit(they were never born again of the spirit) and so they were never able to seek after God and believe in the first place.
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 10-28-2010 at 11:01 AM..
What you said above is the response i was trying to provoke by posting the passage of scripture that i posted.
Now, the point is that many fundamentalists say that the reason why unbelievers are never saved is because they never seek after God, and then they say that the reason why they were saved was because they sought after God with all their hearts.
Its the blame Game ...
But as you rightly answered above, we must be born again before we can ever seek after God, so unbelievers cannot be blamed for not seeking after God because God has not yet worked in their lives and quickened them by the spirit so that they will seek after God and repent and have faith and believe.
When the fundamentalist quotes Jeremiah 29:13, and use that scripture to play the blame game against unbelievers, they are usually saying that they soght God and that is why they were born again and saved. And in converse they are also saying that the reason why unbelievers are not born again and saved is because they have not sought God with all their hearts.
They get the cart before the horse and then proceed to blame others for their unbelief when the scriptures are clear that it is God that must first seek us and quicken us by his spirit before we can and will ever seek him and believe.
Another thing that is disingenuous about what many fundies claim is when they quote Jeremiah 17:9 as a response to the argument from Christian Universalists that after we are born again, we must listen to our hearts in order to come to a knowledge of the truth about God and his word.
The Christian Universalist is applying to the new heart of those that are born again, asking, does ET or annihilation line up with what you feel in your heart about God and his truth?
Fundmantalists have to say that the idea of Eternal Torment does not line up with their hearts because they know they are supposed to love their enemies, but then they use Jeremiah 17:9 to imply that we cant listen to our hearts because it will deceive us, instead we must simply accept what we have been taught to believe without question even if our hearts do not really agree ...
The fact is, as has been concluded by even yourself in your words above, if anyone is never saved it is not their fault, it is only because God chose not to quicken them in the spirit(they were never born again of the spirit) and so they were never able to seek after God in the first place.
The teaching of Universalism continually say that God initiates everything about the individuals relationship with Him, rightly so.... this teaching is constantly boasting about how powerful God is...... rightly so !!
My question is, why continue to sin?
And mock those who want God's grace, His love to keep them from sin......
If God chose you and works in you to will and do His good pleasure...... then why does universalism deny His work, especially of delivering us from sin, sanctifying one NOW ?
The scripture specifically teach us it is God's will for us to cease from our sin.... For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.(Rom.6:14), amen.......also we are not to give our selves over to unrighteousness and use our minds, bodies for sins purpose. We are to go From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. (John 8:38).
Romans 6:1-2
[ Dead to Sin, Alive to God ] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:6-7
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Romans 6:10-18
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
16. Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17. But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Jesus also said on many of occasions to different people.... "Go and Sin no more." John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
John 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
Also David of many individuals witness the power of God and said....... Psalm 19:13
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression.
So if Christ is in you then you are dead to sin and He gives you the power to rise and live above your sin..... universalism ignores Him and are not depending, trusting, believing that the Holy Spirit who has sealed us for that day of redemption and whom is suppose to be in you, which the scripture says, He that is in you is greater then he that is in the world.......
Why keep acting upon the flesh and life making the statement that He is not greater and more powerful then ones sin ???
Just like the scripture says, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. (Matt.15:8)
Also in.....Ezek.33:3 "They come to you as people come, and sit before you as My people and hear your words, but they do not do them, for they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain.
Universalism keeps boasting how God is all powerful and He is working His will in their lives and yet when it comes to ceasing, repenting from sin they say things like.....
~ I'm just human,
~ I'm a sinner can't help it,
~ or it is no longer i that sin but sin that is in me,
...... all that is, is making excuses too deny His power now and continue in the lust of the flesh (sin) which is actually saying God is not powerful enough to keep one from sinning.
Everytime one acts upon some sin, that one is denying God's truth about His power ???? I don't get it...
Universalism mocks everyone who trustes God for their sin to deliver them and keep them from the power of the flesh and sins grip. It doesn't make sense !!
I mean that is the whole concept of Christ coming to this world is to deliver us from our sin, the power of darkness and give us His light, life and deliver us into the promises of God's hope and glory through Him, Jesus Christ, who is our Atonement for our sin now which will lead us toward our inheritance, eternal life !!!
Amen! This is a great post that should be framed! The hypocrisy of UR is so evident to those with spiritual eyes -- and any other doctrine that does not believe in living free from sin.
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for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
