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Obedience is the result of love. No obedience, no love.
Matthew 15
[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I don't like to be so dismissive about the context of Pauls letter so here it is. For those of you who profess perfection because of your own good works, remember Paul was talking about the law, all 613 of them, you keep those right?
Galatians 5
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Romans 7 answers your questions and puts all the verses you quoted above into perspective ...
When we are born again of the spirit, we acknowledge that the law of sin is Good, but sin is still in the members of our corrupt bodies. So when we acknowledge that sin is sin, it is no longer we that are sinning, but it is the sin that dwells in our bodies that continues to sin.
One who is in complete bondage to sin, who is a slave to sin, does not even acknowledge sin.
That is why Paul wrote ...
Romans 7:22-25
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Until we are resurrected in incorruptible bodies, we will always have sin in our lives because sin is in the very members of our corruptible bodies.
That is why we get frustrated, and lose patience, and are sometimes easily angered, and sometimes proud and boisterous, and sometimes spiteful, and sometimes arrogant, and sometimes lustful, and some times hateful, and sometimes liars, and sometimes doubters, and sometimes rude, and sometimes violent ... etc.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree, OK ?
I have been tested BIG times in this with my life and do know that Christ can give us the power to over come that dreadful, awful, moment to temptation to sin and it happen in the matter of seconds!!
He helped me to rise above it...... and it wasn't just saying no to spite, frustration, anger, pride, lustful, hateful, it was a crisis in my life and the power of what was happening was beyond my ability to say, STOP to my flesh.
Yet because of Christ, His Holy Spirit in my life within a split second gave me the choice in my mind and heart to continue and fall for the sin or turn to Him !! I turned to Him immediately and saw a power that I can not put into words.
So, I do know it is possible in this life !!!
God bless
Last edited by LoveLadybugs!; 10-28-2010 at 11:51 AM..
I don't like to be so dismissive about the context of Pauls letter so here it is. For those of you who profess perfection because of your own good works, remember Paul was talking about the law, all 613 of them, you keep those right?
Galatians 5
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
I know what the Scripture says.... and your barking up the wrong tree !!
You are judging incorrectly about my life !! And one day you will see !! I can guarantee you that, bud !!!
I have been tested BIG times in this with my life and do know that Christ can give us the power to over come that dreadful, awful, temptation to sin and it happen in the matter of seconds!!
He helped me to rise above it...... and it wasn't just saying no to spite, frustration, anger, pride, lustful, hateful, it was a crisis in my life and the power of what was happening was beyond my ability to say, STOP to my flesh.
Yet because of Christ, His Holy Spirit in my life within a split second gave me the choice in my mind and heart to continue and fall for the sin or turn to Him !! I turned to Him immediately and saw a power that I can not put into words.
So, I do know it is possible in this life !!!
God bless
I think most of us are saying the same thing. It is Jesus who helps us overcome the flesh but not out of some checklist or following of the law. Our point is we will still sin but it is Jesus who helps us to battle our sin. Luckily when God sees us he sees Jesus on the cross (perfect) and the more we focus on that fact the more the reality of our sin free nature takes over, the more love we show to our neighbor, the more our flesh resembles Gods view of us.
The more we focus on the checklist the more we think about “am I sinningâ€, “is this wrongâ€, “WWJD†etc. the more our life becomes bondage to the law. The more we bask in the freedom of the reality Jesus has given us the more we can focus on him and our fruit will come forth.
I have been tested BIG times in this with my life and do know that Christ can give us the power to over come that dreadful, awful, moment to temptation to sin and it happen in the matter of seconds!!
He helped me to rise above it...... and it wasn't just saying no to spite, frustration, anger, pride, lustful, hateful, it was a crisis in my life and the power of what was happening was beyond my ability to say, STOP to my flesh.
Yet because of Christ, His Holy Spirit in my life within a split second gave me the choice in my mind and heart to continue and fall for the sin or turn to Him !! I turned to Him immediately and saw a power that I can not put into words.
So, I do know it is possible in this life !!!
God bless
You're disagreeing with Paul, not with me ... But so be it ... If you say you are without sin, that is what you are saying.
But here is what John says about that ...
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be already free from sin, we lead ourselves astray and the truth has no place in our hearts.
I know what the Scripture says.... and your barking up the wrong tree !!
You are judging incorrectly about my life !! And one day you will see !! I can guarantee you that, bud !!!
I am not judging anyone; I question those who say we MUST be perfect in our works in order to be saved. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me you are saying that. Considering that a couple people who do claim to be sin free are agreeing with you, it is an easy mistake to make.
I am not sure what angry threat you are making but if you are insinuating that I will be burning in hell, it is quit odd and sad that it is followed by a happy thumbs up.
Whatever.... it is your life and it is God we all will answer too one day, some sooner, then later !
Hopefully He'll be able to get through that pride, hopefully not the way it came to pass in my life, to learn the truth !!!
Whatever.... it is your life and it is God we all will answer too one day, some sooner, then later !
Hopefully He'll be able to get through that pride, hopefully not the way it came to pass in my life, to learn the truth !!!
God Bless and Have a nice day !
PS. I'm not saying we are free from sin !!!
Well if you are not claiming to be free from sin than I don't know what the debate is about?
I am also curious about your reply, "whatever" seems like an odd reply to make to a person whom you assume is damned to eternal torment due to my beliefs? I would assume more loving fruit.
I also find it very odd that you say my belief is "pride", how can I be proud of something that I don't have ANY hand in? My faith is all in the works and acts of Jesus and none of my own doing. What am I proud of?
"You are evil, going to hell and I don't really care" but "God Bless and Have a nice day!"
Let's start at the beginning....... My very first post in this thread.... replying to Brian about a statement he made in his post about Fundamentalist..... !!
Like I said, the rebuttal was calling the Fundamentalist slick which is not true. It was Brian's accusations of them being deceitful !!
Hi LoveLadyBugs,
Yes, I did say that fundamentalists are often very slick. Or, the teachings are slick.
They will tell you that God must be your master, but if you do not do as they tell you, you cannot be a part of their group. SLICK.
Or, they will tell you that all you must do to be saved is believe in Jesus. But if you tell them that you already believe in Jesus, then they will tell you that you must be baptized, attend church, study the Bible, give tithes.... SLICK.
Or, they will tell you that God's will is soverign. But then they will tell you that God cannot save man without his permission. SLICK.
They will preach that Jesus said, "love thy enemies" and "forgive one another." But then they say that capital punishment is necessary for certain criminals. SLICK.
Or, they will tell you that God created all things. But everything that is evil is not of God. SLICK.
Or, they will tell you that man is self-willed, which is bad. But then they will tell you that man must be free to use his will to choose God. SLICK.
Or, they will tell you that God loves you more than you can comprehend. But if you fail to obey Him, He will torment you for eternity. SLICK.
Shall I continue?
Peace,
brian
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Obedience is the result of love. No obedience, no love.
Whatever, continue on !!!
