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Su8re all mankind are sinners. The diffeernce is non-christian do not recongnise sin .Only those who beleieve in chraist prey tot eh father for forgiveness ;konwig they are sinners just living life as humans do even if a christian. Christian bascailly strive to keep teh commanemnts but will fail in many of the simpler ones rather than the worse as we see itthat disobey man;s law.
WOW lots of micconseptions regarding Christians and sin...Of course "True Christians" sin.
The Bible (the inspired word of GOD) calls us to be Christ like. We cannot be as perfect as Christ. We will fail and fail time and time again. Romans 3:23 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Whatever your take, our modern understanding of sin comes from the Bible. The Bible describes sin as any thought or activity that goes against God's will. That covers obvious, awful crimes like murder—but it also covers the little ways that we hurt others in our everyday lives. Even the holiest person you can think of messes up from time to time.
But there's more to sin than good old-fashioned bad behavior. The Bible teaches us that sin is so ingrained in the human experience that it marks even our most beautiful accomplishments.
And that's bad news, because sin keeps us from connecting with God. He's so perfect that sin simply can't come near him. That means that people who have sinned—people like us—can't get close to him either. It doesn't matter if your sin was big or little—just like even a little pinch of the wrong ingredient spoils the entire recipe, even just a tiny little sin makes you too sinful to meet with God. Fortunately, that's not where the story ends.
God loves you, despite your mistakes. He wants to be in a relationship with you. But for that to happen, the sin has to go away. You can't make that happen on your own. You can't scrub away your past sins by yourself. And no matter how hard you try, you just can't live a life that's free of sin's taint.
This is what has been called "the problem of sin," and spiritually speaking, it's the greatest hurdle any of us will ever face. It's also the central question around which all of Christianity is concentrated. Is there a solution to the problem of sin? It comes only with admission of sin and the acceptance of Christ as your Savior...It's there free for the takeing. Anyone can have it anyone at all............
I find the above statement to be false based on what is taught by Christianity regarding that we are all born in the sin of Adam. I'm curious how do Christians get around that fact that Jesus was born of Mary, a sinner??? If Jesus was born of a sinner (which Mary definitely was based on Christian teaching)...then he is also a sinner and could not possibly be born sinless...for he would also carry the sin of Adam through his mother.
Even now days with our advancements in science humans can take the egg of one woman and transplant it into the womb of another and fertilize it with the seed of a man without that woman ever having coitus with anyone, and she can give birth.
If you can believe god created the universe from nothing, then it should not be a stretch to believe that God placed the embryo of Christ into the womb of Mary without it having been her egg or fertilized by the seed of a man. Just because she carried Christ to the point of his birth does not mean that it was her egg that conceived him.
Even now days with our advancements in science humans can take the egg of one woman and transplant it into the womb of another and fertilize it with the seed of a man without that woman ever having coitus with anyone, and she can give birth.
If you can believe god created the universe from nothing, then it should not be a stretch to believe that God placed the embryo of Christ into the womb of Mary without it having been her egg or fertilized by the seed of a man. Just because she carried Christ to the point of his birth does not mean that it was her egg that conceived him.
Peace ...
Seriously now....this cannot possibly be the spin Christians are using to justify this....is it???? It's bad enough Jesus doesn't qualify as Messiah through Joseph's line as it is....now you are going to say that the egg wasn't Mary's as well....which would mean there is no earthly parentage at all and would disqualify him even moreso.
Are there any other Christians theories out there....I'm willing to entertain them all but would really prefer to know how Christians actually get around this little contradiction.
Seriously now....this cannot possibly be the spin Christians are using to justify this....is it???? It's bad enough Jesus doesn't qualify as Messiah through Joseph's line as it is....now you are going to say that the egg wasn't Mary's as well....which would mean there is no earthly parentage at all and would disqualify him even moreso.
Are there any other Christians theories out there....I'm willing to entertain them all but would really prefer to know how Christians actually get around this little contradiction.
Who is to say that Mary having birthed Christ does not give him the birthright even if he was placed in her womb? Where is the law that dictates that?
Christ was Mary's first son and heir to here lineage ... He was heir to Josephs lineage by adoption.
Jesus was also heir to the throne of David because he was Davids Lord, and it was through Christ that all things were created. That is to say the throne of David was given by Christ to begin with.
Jesus said, "before abraham was i am". Jesus taught that he pre-existed his natural birth ...
Jesus has the birthright because he was in fact born of Mary, even if it was not her egg that produced him.
Though maybe im wrong, im open to other people ideas on the matter. And im open to being reproved by scriptural basis for what i said above if anyone can produce scriptural evidence to the contrary ...
One thing is certain, the scriptures teach that Christ is the only begotten of the father. So he was born supernaturally and with a supernatural understanding to say the least. He was not born like all other people, but was a new creation, the second Adam who was perfectly obedient.
I'm not certain that i believe we are born sinners to begin with(and certainly not "totally depraved"), but instead that we are born into a sinful world and because of the original sin all men are born corruptible in the flesh, being born for corrupt flesh, though not being born sinners but instead being born naturally inclined to sin because of our mortal disposition.
I do find your line of questioning to be interesting. Maybe you should start a new thread on it? I'd be interested in seeing how people reply.
Who is to say that Mary having birthed Christ does not give him the birthright even if he was placed in her womb? Where is the law that dictates that?
Christ was Mary's first son and heir to here lineage ... He was heir to Josephs lineage by adoption.
Jesus was also heir to the throne of David because he was Davids Lord, and it was through Christ that all things were created. That is to say the throne of David was given by Christ to begin with.
Jesus said, "before abraham was i am". Jesus taught that he pre-existed his natural birth ...
Jesus has the birthright because he was in fact born of Mary, even if it was not her egg that produced him.
Though maybe im wrong, im open to other people ideas on the matter. And im open to being reproved by scriptural basis for what i said above if anyone can produce scriptural evidence to the contrary ...
One thing is certain, the scriptures teach that Christ is the only begotten of the father. So he was born supernaturally and with a supernatural understanding to say the least. He was not born like all other people, but was a new creation, the second Adam who was perfectly obedient.
I'm not certain that i believe we are born sinners to begin with(and certainly not "totally depraved"), but instead we are born into a sinful world and because of the original sin all men are born corruptible in the flesh, being born for corrupt flesh, though not being born sinners but instead being born naturally inclined to sin because of our mortal disposition.
I do find your line of questioning to be interesting. Maybe you should start a new thread on it? I'd be interested in seeing how people reply.
Peace ...
Tribal heritage can only be passed through the father, which would have been Joseph but Joseph was not his true father and adoption does not qualify him...nor does being of the line of Mary qualify him...according to the Hebrew bible (OT). The geneaologies given in the bible are an Epic Fail as well as many of the allegedly fulfilled OT prophecies! There are specific reasons why the Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah and they are all legitimate...but that is an entirely different subject.
My question was how can we teach Jesus was sinless when he was born of Mary, a sinner? According to Christian teaching, we are all born in the sin of Adam and that includes Mary...so it would be completely impossible based on that for Jesus to be born sinless as is espoused. Now, with that being said, how do Christians get around this clear and gross contradiction????? I sincerely want to know the answer to this question.
Tribal heritage can only be passed through the father, which would have been Joseph but Joseph was not his true father and adoption does not qualify him...nor does being of the line of Mary qualify him...according to the Hebrew bible (OT). The geneaologies given in the bible are an Epic Fail as well as many of the allegedly fulfilled OT prophecies! There are specific reasons why the Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah and they are all legitimate...but that is an entirely different subject.
My question was how can we teach Jesus was sinless when he was born of Mary, a sinner? According to Christian teaching, we are all born in the sin of Adam and that includes Mary...so it would be completely impossible based on that for Jesus to be born sinless as is espoused. Now, with that being said, how do Christians get around this clear and gross contradiction????? I sincerely want to know the answer to this question.
I'm taking answers from anyone....anyone at all.
I accept that you may not believe Jesus was born without sin, or that you do not accept what Christianity teaches concerning these things.
However, i wonder why you will not post scriptural evidence for what you are claiming to be true when you say things like ...
Quote:
Tribal heritage can only be passed through the father, which would have been Joseph but Joseph was not his true father and adoption does not qualify him...nor does being of the line of Mary qualify him...according to the Hebrew bible (OT).
I would be interested in seeing the scriptures you base the above statements on ... I am not saying that they do not exist, i am merely asking you to produce them if they do exist.
Once you have established your premise in the above statement by scripture and prove my explanations to be false, we can go from there ...
. . . As far as the fact that God hardened the Israeli's and blinded them to his true nature, you should not be so much amazed at my saying so as i am merely quoting the new testament.
So, in other words, there were no Jewish converts, never have been, and you received your Bible from Gentiles? Because this is what you are writing.
Further, for you to deem all the old worthies as hell fire fodder is stunning. Since you believe only the Apostolic Scriptures, apparently, look at the "faith chapter."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Frankly i am also amazed that you cannot see that the new testament plainly teaches that the nation of Israel was blind to the true nature or God, and that is why they were always coming under the judgment of God and being led away into captivity.
The whole nation? See my answer above. A few still hold this to be true today, which is also astounding.
Tribal heritage can only be passed through the father, which would have been Joseph but Joseph was not his true father and adoption does not qualify him...nor does being of the line of Mary qualify him...according to the Hebrew bible (OT). The geneaologies given in the bible are an Epic Fail as well as many of the allegedly fulfilled OT prophecies! There are specific reasons why the Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah and they are all legitimate...but that is an entirely different subject.
My question was how can we teach Jesus was sinless when he was born of Mary, a sinner? According to Christian teaching, we are all born in the sin of Adam and that includes Mary...so it would be completely impossible based on that for Jesus to be born sinless as is espoused. Now, with that being said, how do Christians get around this clear and gross contradiction????? I sincerely want to know the answer to this question.
I'm taking answers from anyone....anyone at all.
My belief is that Mary's bloodline was purified as silver is purified 7 seven...before she became a vessel for God's divine purpose...this of course is my belief only and not dependent on what others may think otherwise...per Genesis 3:15, Psalm 12:6, Isaiah 49:1-26, and Revelation 12:1
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Isaiah 43:26-27 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherewith is he to be accounted of?
My argument is only one of many...I welcome...not disrespect others view of the "Virgin Birth"...but this is my faith..."a house divided cannot stand"...I am grateful of being a woman...
So, in other words, there were no Jewish converts, never have been, and you received your Bible from Gentiles? Because this is what you are writing.
Further, for you to deem all the old worthies as hell fire fodder is stunning. Since you believe only the Apostolic Scriptures, apparently, look at the "faith chapter."
The whole nation? See my answer above. A few still hold this to be true today, which is also astounding.
Rom 11:5-10
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal. ”So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.c What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.
And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”
Though God blinded the nation of Israel to his true identity, in the times of the Christ and the apostles, God had chosen a remnant of Israel to whom he revealed his true nature in Christ by grace. Those are the Israeli's to whom God revealed that Christ was his manifest image, and his only begotten son and the savior of the world. But the rest of Israel God blinded and hardened since the beginning when they required God to give them the law.
You see, it was the step father of Moses, Jethro, who taught Moses to give the Nation of Israel judges and later kings and to seek God to give them the law ...
Jethro was a Midianite high priest of Baal-peor ... And since the time when Moses accepted the tutelage of his father in law, Israel through Moses came to misunderstand the nature of God and his Character, and that is the reason why Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, as he misrepresented God in his anger and by striking the rock three times instead of just once ... From the beginning the Israelis understanding of who God is was influenced not only by the Egyptians, but by the religion of Baal as well, via the misrepresentation of Moses who was influenced by the religion of his wife's father ...
God never intended that man should be given a law, but the Israelis required Moses to go to God(As Jethro suggested) and ask for a law so that they could know how they might please him ... However, God knew before hand that Israel nor any other nation neither mankind in general could earn his grace, because mankind was then and is now corrupted by the mortal nature.
God gave Moses the law not so that Israel or humanity might justify themselves by observing the law, but instead he gave the law to convict men of their sin and inability to earn his grace. The purpose of the law was to convict man of sin and that was it, not to give them a means to save themselves which thing is not even possible.
The reason why God gave Israel the law in order to convict them of their sin was so that mankind would come to eventually acknowledge their need for the grace of God in Christs work on the cross for the remission of sins and justification in the sight of God through faith alone.
I do not truly believe that anyone is "deserving of hell fire" in the traditional sense of the phrase. That is to say i do not believe in a literal burning hell after this life, though i do believe in the fiery valley of the sons of Hinnom to which Jesus referred.
I do not believe that the blinded and hardened Israelis deserve to be damned any more than born again Christians, as it was all in Gods plan that they should be blinded and misunderstand his plan and purpose to save all people through Christ, so that God might confound the corrupt wisdom of man, and so that Israel would reject Christ and kill him in order that Christ might become the vicarious atonement through whom the whole world will be saved.
I think you mistake the irony that i am using in order to demonstrate that all things work out according to Gods plan, even the blindness of the nation of Israel whom he elected to reveal his plan of salvation through. It is the mysterious way in which the spirit of God moves in order to cause the foolish things of the earth to rise up and confound the wisdom of men. Just as he used the donkey in order to speak to Balaam ...
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-28-2010 at 04:49 PM..
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